Maximum Lawyer

Tyson Mutrux 00:00:02 This is maximum lawyer with your host, Tyson Matrix.

Tyson Mutrux 00:00:11 Today we're continuing our special three part series where I talked to couples who not only live together but run law firms together. We wanted to know what that looked like behind the scenes, where they're aligned, where they butt heads and how they handle the business and the marriage at the same time. For each episode, I interview both partners separately first, and then bring them together at the end to see what happens when they hear each other's answers. It's raw, it's honest, and some of the answers are going to surprise you, but it's all about getting them together on the same page to grow their business as a unified front. Today you're going to meet Alex and Maggie. First up is Alex Preston, who is the managing partner at Promis Legal. He's got a strong focus on tech and innovation in the legal space. During our conversation, we talked about decision making frameworks, managing expectations, and what it means to lead alongside someone you're building a life with.

Tyson Mutrux 00:01:07 Then I sat down with Maggie, also a partner at Promis legal, and she brings a systems focused approach to the firm's operations and client experience. We talk about boundaries, trust and how she thinks about her role, not just as a partner in the firm, but as a partner in the bigger picture. There are a lot of great takeaways that I'm excited for you to hear with this one. So let's get started.

Speaker 3 00:01:28 No marriages were harmed in the making of this podcast episode.

Tyson Mutrux 00:01:33 First question is what does success look like to you?

Maggie Shahrestani 00:01:39 So I think for me personally, success looks like engagement, right? Like being being engaged with your life and feeling interested in what you're doing. Like, I think that's really important to me. I don't ever want to feel like I'm just on rails, not like excited about what I'm doing.

Tyson Mutrux 00:01:57 What does success look like to you?

Alex Shahrestani 00:02:00 success to me is financial independence and freedom and the ability to step away from work and live my life. We built the firm around having kids and spending time with our family and friends.

Alex Shahrestani 00:02:13 So that is is the the true metric of success for us.

Tyson Mutrux 00:02:19 What's one big change you'd make to the firm right now if it were only up to you?

Maggie Shahrestani 00:02:24 So I think for me, one thing that I would change is how do I how do I explain this? So I think I think we're very tech focused as a firm. And I think that's a big strength of ours. I think something that's something that Alex brings to the table that a lot of attorneys don't. One thing I worry about, and I think this is just sort of pervasive in our society, but how do you keep the same level of like personal engagement with clients when you're relying so much on tech? And one way I see of kind of getting around that and maintaining really good relationships is being a firm that's not just law, but also takes a broader perspective on things. So, for instance, you know, I know there are like consulting groups out there that are run by lawyers that kind of consult on other aspects of the business as well as on strictly legal issues.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:03:14 And I think that would be a really cool value add for us if we could almost pick an industry and really build out expertise in that industry and be able to come alongside folks as counselors beyond just strictly legal issues.

Tyson Mutrux 00:03:28 What's one big change you'd make to the firm right now if it were only up to you?

Alex Shahrestani 00:03:34 I think I would probably hire more people.

Tyson Mutrux 00:03:38 Oh, interesting. I may have to get into that in the joint session. All right, so I'm gonna give you a magic wand, and you get to. You get to decide what the firm likes, looks like in 15 years. Describe what it looks like.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:03:51 Oh, man. I think what I sort of imagined is kind of along the same lines of what I was just saying, but with a bunch of different industries. Right? So, for example, if we started off in like tech startups, we would have kind of a hub that is, you know, from A to Z, what every tech startup needs. You'd have your financial counselors, you'd have your your part time CFOs, you'd have your lawyers, you'd have marketing folks basically like a one stop shop for somebody who's trying to spin up a company.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:04:23 And then you'd also have that in other industries. So maybe like a healthcare one or, you know, government, like I would love to be. Yeah, I guess maybe it's overambitious, but I would love to have that expertise built out in a bunch of different areas and feel like what we offer to clients is kind of someone who's walking alongside them and helping them figure out what they need to do in a, in a comprehensive kind of holistic way. And I would also really love to see the like really positive and ongoing relationships with our clients beyond just individual transactions, right? As opposed to them just coming to us for a contract. You know, it's an ongoing conversation and relationship.

Tyson Mutrux 00:05:07 All right. So you I'm going to put you in charge of a magic wand, right. And you get to decide what the firm looks like in 15 years. Yeah. Describe what it looks like.

Alex Shahrestani 00:05:18 Oh, man. That's. Let me paint you a picture. So kind of a hub and spoke model where we pop up offices around teams that are supported by our brand and technology, along with guidance from the central office.

Alex Shahrestani 00:05:36 So I imagine that would be tied to specific practice areas and niches more so than geographic regions. And the network would be a somewhat like loose large law firm association. Right. So you still have the resources of being able to call on a colleague, but without all of the, you know, the ick factor that comes from a large law firm.

Tyson Mutrux 00:06:00 Is there a certain size that you want to get to?

Alex Shahrestani 00:06:03 Oh, I mean, so the driving force, like everyone goes to law school because they want to do something more than just make money. I think there's lots of better ways to make money than being a lawyer. So yeah, I would like to move the needle on the justice gap. So whatever size that is to, to like, change something about the practice of law that means that more people get access to legal services. I think that's the size I need to hit. And, you know, that might be it might not be about the size of the firm. It might be about the impact we can have with our processes.

Tyson Mutrux 00:06:40 All right. We're going to transition into two roles and power dynamics a little bit.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:06:45 That sounds scary.

Tyson Mutrux 00:06:46 Who's the boss of the firm?

Maggie Shahrestani 00:06:50 Alex for sure. I think in large part because really, I think starting the firm was more his vision than mine. Although I've always, you know, tried to be as supportive as I can. He, I still defer to him on most of the high level kind of strategic questions.

Tyson Mutrux 00:07:06 What do you think he said?

Maggie Shahrestani 00:07:07 I think he said him as well.

Tyson Mutrux 00:07:10 Who's the boss of the firm?

Alex Shahrestani 00:07:12 Me? I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure she'll agree. But we'll see.

Tyson Mutrux 00:07:16 We'll see. We're going to find out very soon. Next question. How did the idea of the two of you working together first come up?

Maggie Shahrestani 00:07:22 I think I was looking for more flexibility. So he was I was working in-house at a company. He was trying to build the firm, you know, right out of right out of school, right out of law school. And I oh, yeah, I was having I was having some dissatisfaction at work generally.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:07:41 So I was looking for a change. And we both kind of floated like, what if I just joined the firm for a while to, like, help and, like, figure out next steps. And then I guess the rest is history.

Tyson Mutrux 00:07:54 Nice. How did the idea of the two of you working together first come up?

Alex Shahrestani 00:08:00 Yeah. So, this was pre-COVID. I had launched the firm right out of law school, which was always the goal. You know, much to the chagrin of my administration, my wife, Maggie, was really supportive of this plan from the get go. And then one day, she came home from her in-house job, and she saw me in my pajamas watching Netflix while I worked on a client matter. And she was like, I want to do that, too. And and so the firm was growing at a rapid clip, and it was it was a viable option for us. And so she put in her notice and she joined the firm officially on April 1st of 2020.

Tyson Mutrux 00:08:39 What's one thing you wish Alex would stop doing in the business?

Maggie Shahrestani 00:08:43 Oh, goodness. I don't think he's doing anything that I would want him to stop, but I think I think he is. He is a person who is full of ideas, and I think that can sometimes come at the expense of focus. So I think if he were able to, you know, take the 20 things that he's really excited about and somehow just forget about 15 of them, I think we'd be able to make more progress on the on the five that remain.

Tyson Mutrux 00:09:11 Sort of like that shiny object syndrome.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:09:14 Yeah, a little bit. And it's like it's all great, but it's like we only have limited time, you know? So but I think he has he has trouble calling those, those things and like making that list shorter. But it's also, you know, what makes him him. So I sort of love it about him too. It's it's hard.

Tyson Mutrux 00:09:32 Okay. So from a business standpoint, what's one thing you wish Maggie would stop doing?

Alex Shahrestani 00:09:38 I think, you know, I hesitate to say this because I think we actually have a really good working dynamic where I like doing some stuff and she doesn't like it and vice versa.

Alex Shahrestani 00:09:49 But I wish she had a bigger appetite for risk in the firm.

Tyson Mutrux 00:09:54 Okay.

Alex Shahrestani 00:09:55 So a little bit less, a little less cautious, I would say.

Tyson Mutrux 00:09:59 Do you want to elaborate a little bit on that?

Alex Shahrestani 00:10:01 Yeah. Like, I she's got that lawyer personality of, like, wanting to know the answer to things, right? Like, she has to know everything cold before she'll take a step versus taking a leap of faith. So, for example, bringing on our first our first attorney took a really long time. Bringing on our first VA took a really long time. And, I think if I had had my way, we would have we would have taken that leap a little faster.

Tyson Mutrux 00:10:27 Okay. Yeah. That's something maybe we want to discuss in a little bit. Describe Alex's work style in one word.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:10:34 Creative.

Tyson Mutrux 00:10:35 Okay. Explain what you mean.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:10:37 His work style is all about, like, bursts. Like he has, like, a burst of energy because he's, inspired by something. He gets it done, then he is like kind of maybe doing something else and then gets another burst of inspiration and jumps to that other thing to work on it.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:10:56 So it's just yeah, it's not like one thing you could never write down. Like, here's what Alex is going to be doing from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. it's because it's going to change. Like there's there's no way that he's going to stick to that schedule.

Tyson Mutrux 00:11:13 Describe Maggie's work style in one word.

Alex Shahrestani 00:11:16 Methodical.

Tyson Mutrux 00:11:17 Now explain what you mean by that.

Alex Shahrestani 00:11:19 So it's it's very much a process and a very thorough one. So she'll identify an issue, she'll think through the entirety of the issue and then attack each piece of it piecemeal. So whether that's, you know, drafting some documents for a client or entering a negotiation, she will walk through A to Z. Everything that's going to happen in her head before she sits down and does the work. And then she walks through each and every step.

Tyson Mutrux 00:11:47 Sounds like a good thing. That's good.

Alex Shahrestani 00:11:49 Yeah. It is. Yeah. for for practicing law.

Tyson Mutrux 00:11:53 Has that caused any issues, though, with her being so methodical?

Alex Shahrestani 00:11:55 It did initially. So when she first came on board, we tried to do everything 5050.

Alex Shahrestani 00:12:00 Right. Like so client intake and legal work and tried to split it to make it feel like we were more of a team. And then we sort of learned a lesson that, you know, the stuff I hate is the stuff she loves, including, you know, some to some extent, the practice of law. Like, I like the really intricate questions of like technology law, and I'm happy to do all that stuff there. But in terms of like running a business or doing like rote legal work, I don't like it as much. So when she brings that methodical approach, it's to the stuff that she is, more excited to do. And so, yeah, initially it was a problem, but like, we sort of sorted that out after about a year or two of like dabbling in each other's lanes. And so I would say we're at a pretty good a pretty good balance at this point.

Tyson Mutrux 00:12:46 What's one way you and Alex butt heads at work?

Maggie Shahrestani 00:12:49 I think I'm more risk averse. So I think when it comes to making decisions about the firm, I guess the most negative way to put it is that, you know, I think he can feel like I'm just criticizing anything that he decides to do.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:13:04 really, for me, it's like, yeah, I'm just risk averse. So I ask all of the questions like, what's the worst that could go wrong? Like, usually that's how we move forward, right? Is like, we get to what's the absolute worst that could happen. And I get comfortable with that. And then we can kind of then we can kind of move forward. But yeah. So like when it came to like hiring people or I guess that was like the biggest one was like when we first started hiring folks, I was kind of dragging my feet about that. Yeah, I think that's the biggest thing.

Tyson Mutrux 00:13:31 What's one way you and Maggie butt heads at work?

Alex Shahrestani 00:13:34 I think it's the primary way is about how much time we spend working. So there's there's like a mutual respect for, like, hey, we need to get stuff done. But also, like I said earlier, the whole point of building the firm was so we could have time for family and and life and things around us.

Alex Shahrestani 00:13:54 But, you know, when you're the owner of a firm, the buck stops with you. And I think I have a harder time stepping away from work sometimes. And I think that's probably the biggest point of contention that we currently have.

Tyson Mutrux 00:14:07 Gotcha. The next question is actually, what's the biggest business decision you've disagreed on and how did it play out?

Maggie Shahrestani 00:14:12 Yeah, I think it was hiring folks. I'm very much like a give me a recipe and I'll and I'll do the recipe right. Like I, I want to know like what is the exact amount of revenue that I should be making before I bring on, you know, a person to help. And obviously, there's no perfect answer to that. And Alex's thought was, let's bring on someone sooner so I can spend more time on business development. We can really, like, push things when it comes to growth. And I'm over here like I do more of our our home finances as well. So I'm over here like, no, I need we can't give away that money.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:14:47 I need that money. You know? I need that money to pay for X, Y and Z. That was really the biggest one. And I think what it ultimately came down to was a little bit of a leap of faith on my part, because I want Alex to feel like he is putting everything he can into this business because it's his dream. Right. And I don't want like 15 years down the road, whatever happens with the business, I don't want to feel like he didn't give it his best shot.

Tyson Mutrux 00:15:11 What's the biggest business decision that the two of you have disagreed on, and how did it play out? In the end.

Alex Shahrestani 00:15:18 It was the hiring question. So hiring our first attorney, there was a lot of pushback initially like, hey, we you know, we don't have enough of a revenue stream to like, justify this. Like, it's scary to like, give up some of your revenue to, to like, pay somebody. And and my pushback was like, well, we don't have the time to like go and do other stuff if we're like just only doing the legal work.

Alex Shahrestani 00:15:43 And so that was I. This was a while ago now, but, that was a long dispute. And eventually we brought somebody on. I think there were some, some things that I was wrong about. So like, we're trying to be, like, evenhanded about how we compensate our attorneys. And I think I was too evenhanded with our first hire or two and I and it was not really a sustainable financial arrangement. So ultimately we brought someone on. But there were some some hiccups along the way that I think were the things Maggie was afraid of.

Tyson Mutrux 00:16:20 That's fair. What are the rules about talking about work at home or during non-working hours?

Maggie Shahrestani 00:16:26 Oh yeah. It's funny you bring that up. I feel like that's not so much something that comes up anymore. It used to a lot because it would feel like we were always talking about work, like it would be the default thing on our minds. Now, I think with the kids and everything like, it's so, so the short answer is there is no rule.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:16:45 Like it all just gets talked about all at once. I think honestly, what has suffered is like talk of anything other than work or kids like. I think that's most of our conversations, our work or kids or politics, frankly, which is like our maybe the the most relaxing of the of the three, because we're not going to disagree, we're just going to vent to each other. But yeah, there is no rule. Maybe there should be, but there's not at the moment.

Tyson Mutrux 00:17:13 Were there ever rules?

Maggie Shahrestani 00:17:15 Yes. So it used to be that this was kind of pre kids, but it used to be that we would set aside particular times for work because I was feeling, I think Alex maybe felt a little less this way, but I was feeling like I don't just want to talk about work, like I want to make sure we're talking about other things in our relationship, and I want to make sure that we yeah, we're like cultivating our personal relationship and not just our professional one.

Tyson Mutrux 00:17:38 Who broke the rules the most.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:17:40 Alex. Definitely. Yeah, I know for sure.

Tyson Mutrux 00:17:45 What are the rules about talking about work at home or during non work hours?

Alex Shahrestani 00:17:51 Yeah. So this has become less of an issue only because we have three toddlers. So it's like that. That time is like so limited already that it just we we have to get all of our conversations in at once. But it was an issue where we would go out on dates and like I realized, oh, if I bring my phone, I tend to like get wrapped up in work stuff. So I started leaving my phone in the center console of the car. That way, like, I could be like fully present and, you know, there was a little bit of that on her side as well, depending on like how, you know, involved she is in a particular problem. But, yeah, like I said, with the toddlers, it's been it's been less of an issue. It's more of like a, you know, all hands on deck at all times right now.

Alex Shahrestani 00:18:35 So those rules have sort of relaxed a little bit.

Tyson Mutrux 00:18:38 When the rules were not relaxed, who broke the rules the most?

Alex Shahrestani 00:18:42 Certainly me, I did. I did my best. But, you know, habits are hard to break. So, you know, I think I think I did an okay job, but, yeah, if anyone broke the rules, it was probably me.

Tyson Mutrux 00:18:54 Tell me about a time you had a fight at home that affected your day at the office. Or vice versa.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:19:00 Oh, goodness. A fight at home. So our fights are not like they usually involve a lot of silence on my part. So I'm trying to think of a I'm trying to think of, like, a particular fight, because it's not like we fight that much, but when we do, it's just an awkward couple of days, you know? Yeah. I can't think of like a particular, a particular fight. But what ultimately happens if if it does affect our work day is that we just don't talk much that day, right? Like we talk to the kids, we do what we need to do for work, but we don't.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:19:33 We just don't talk much to each other about anything else.

Tyson Mutrux 00:19:36 I think that's pretty standard. I think that's a normal that's a normal response. All right. So now we're going to get into a sticky one. Okay. Tell me about a time you had a fight at home that affected your day at the office or vice versa.

Alex Shahrestani 00:19:49 Yeah. Okay. So there was one. How long ago. This must have been like a year or two ago. And we were talking about revenue. And Maggie said something that I thought was unfair. Like she, she feels like we should be bringing in a lot more revenue to be running our own firm. And the way she communicated, it was like to me it sounded like, hey, you're failing, which we like, talked it out. And that was not really where things landed. But yeah, that that took the wind out of my sails for sure. For a couple of days. I was like, oh man. Like, I need to go do something else.

Alex Shahrestani 00:20:29 Like I need to close up shop. But, yeah, we sort of worked through it and we, we landed on like, no, this is we've kind of, to some extent succeeded at what we set out to do.

Tyson Mutrux 00:20:41 Are the arguments bigger from work, or are the. Are the home arguments bigger?

Alex Shahrestani 00:20:45 I think we're pretty good about having these discussions. I would say the home arguments tend to be the bigger ones. So we actually, like I said, we we kind of are into doing different pieces of work. So I am more than happy to let her take over, you know, various aspects of the practice. And same same with her, the things that I like to do. She wants nothing to do with, which makes for a lot less. Head butting at home is more often where it's going to come up.

Tyson Mutrux 00:21:14 How would you describe Alex's leadership style and what would you tweak about it?

Maggie Shahrestani 00:21:18 I think he's he's very hands off. Like he gives he gives the folks who work for him a lot of autonomy and respect.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:21:27 And I think they really appreciate that. And then he's one thing he's really, really good at is being purposeful about pouring into folks. So he's always, you know, making sure that people have what they need to succeed? He's offering things like offering to help them, you know, network or you know. I think he he really goes out of his way to build people up, I think. And I think it's a big strength of his as a leader in terms of what I would tweak. I don't know that I would tweak any of that. I mean, I think, I think in any organization you need folks like that, and then you need folks who are like doing the more boring, like looking over people's shoulder, making sure quality standards are being met. And like, I think I kind of serve that role at our firm. And I think I wouldn't want to change what Alex is doing at all.

Tyson Mutrux 00:22:13 How would you describe Maggie's leadership style and what would you tweak about it?

Alex Shahrestani 00:22:18 So she's got like a very traditional middle management leadership style.

Alex Shahrestani 00:22:24 Like she knows how to keep processes running, how to stay on top of people. I actually, I, I don't know that I would change anything and not because not because like she's necessarily like perfect at what she's doing, but it's more that she brings a different style than I do. And I think that's important. So like, we work with startup founders all the time, and like most often the reason that they fail is they have blind spots about stuff like that's a bunch of founders that all do the same kind of thing. And I don't have a sense for like, I don't see what she brings to the table as a negative. I see it as like a thing that I don't have my head around quite as much. So if I were to say, like she should change anything, I wouldn't know what what to point out.

Tyson Mutrux 00:23:13 Okay, that's a good answer, especially since this is recorded. So that's nice.

Alex Shahrestani 00:23:17 Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:23:18 Where do you think Alex thrives in the business.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:23:22 He thrives on building things.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:23:24 So he he gets bored with the day to day I think. And that kind of takes you can kind of see it take the wind out of his sails a little bit. But he really gets he really comes alive and gets inspired when he's building out something new, whether that be a new tech tool for the firm or whether he's working on curating a program for. He runs the South by Southwest legal track every year, and he builds out all of the programming for that. He's very yeah, very creative. I think he thrives when there's something to be built.

Tyson Mutrux 00:23:58 Do you think that that's where building things? Do you think that's where he spends most of his time in the firm?

Maggie Shahrestani 00:24:04 I think that's where he'd like to spend most of his time. I think it's probably a split between that and more of the day to day stuff. It's probably 50 over 50. I think he does manage to put a lot of time into the stuff that he cares about. I think he's stubborn like that in a good way.

Tyson Mutrux 00:24:22 Do you think he should be spending more time or less time building?

Maggie Shahrestani 00:24:25 I think he should be spending the same amount of time building, less time on the other stuff that he does, like the administrative and the intake, and he should replace that other like 50% with marketing and like networking stuff.

Tyson Mutrux 00:24:44 Interesting. Where do you think Maggie thrives in the business?

Alex Shahrestani 00:24:47 She's an excellent communicator. She's really good at delivering bad news. Well, I think she's very clear sighted as well. She doesn't get distracted very easily. So whatever the task is at hand, she finds a way to get it done. I think people like working with her. Like, I think she has a good communication style with our attorneys. She's good at communicating what needs to change, what needs to be done better. And for me, like I think I get more heated. And so like I, I think like deferring to her on those things is is like our best option. So that's that's one of her strengths.

Tyson Mutrux 00:25:25 Do you think that in her current role she spends enough time doing what she thrives at the most?

Alex Shahrestani 00:25:30 Yes.

Alex Shahrestani 00:25:31 I would say maybe even too much. Like I would like to see her. This is not like about leadership or anything, but I would like to see her step more into a business development role alongside with me. I think she sees herself as not being good or capable in that in that position, but I don't know. I just disagree with her, but it's like a leap she hasn't been willing to take.

Tyson Mutrux 00:25:55 What is one thing you wish Alex really understood about how you operate?

Maggie Shahrestani 00:26:00 Oh, man. I think he understands me pretty well. I think there are times I think I've mentioned this already where it can feel like I'm criticizing. And really, I'm just trying to understand, like, it's almost like I'm building a model in my head of, like, what's happening, and I really want every piece of it. Right. So a conversation with me might go, hey, I have this idea. Well, what about this? What about this? What about that? What about that? It's like not because I'm criticizing the idea, but because I'm trying to fully understand the idea.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:26:29 And the problem is that sometimes the idea is only in its early stages of being built. And so there aren't answers. So I think I'm always hoping that he understands and also trying to change my tone a little, but hoping that he understands that that's interest, not critique.

Tyson Mutrux 00:26:46 Excellent. What's one thing you wish that Maggie really understood about how you operate.

Alex Shahrestani 00:26:53 The technology side of things? So I am a very tech heavy lawyer. I have a background in computer science and, like, it's my whole thing. I go on, like speaking circuits, like talking about how AI works and like demystifying it and talking about, you know, privacy and security and all of those things. And Maggie is an absolute Luddite. So she she just her eyes glaze over. I have learned not to have these conversations with her. She's very polite about it, but but like, I've given up, like, if, you know, if she can't figure out how to open an app on her phone, I know I'm tech support and, like, I just have to be okay with that.

Alex Shahrestani 00:27:34 But yeah, that is the one thing I wish she, you know, took a little bit more of an interest in is like figuring out the tech or coming along on some of that journey with me.

Tyson Mutrux 00:27:42 What's something running a law firm with Alex has taught you about your marriage?

Maggie Shahrestani 00:27:47 Oh, I think it's taught me that there is a lot of mutual respect in our marriage, and it's hard. It's something to fall back on and rely on when other things aren't working very good.

Tyson Mutrux 00:28:01 You made it to the last question.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:28:03 Okay.

Tyson Mutrux 00:28:05 So congratulations. What's something? Running a law firm with Maggie has taught you about your marriage.

Alex Shahrestani 00:28:11 I think it's that thing of, you know, we have different strengths. And, like, leaning into that is a good thing. Like, there are certain things that, you know, she's better at and certain things I'm better at, and it's it's okay. Right. Like, it's sort of I think it's been actually, you know, thankfully a good thing for our marriage to work together, which I know is normally not the case.

Alex Shahrestani 00:28:31 It's it's like often leads to butting of heads. Or you hear stories about people who like, just they can't stand to see each other at the end of the day because they're working together. But yeah, we don't we don't feel that way. And I think part of that is recognizing like, oh, it's okay. It's okay for one of us to care about and take on the responsibility of a particular thing and not have to have the other person equally contribute to it. Like, that's okay. And I think that's been healthy.

Tyson Mutrux 00:29:00 I've got lots of notes on you, I didn't. Morgan and Becca both have been listening in and taking notes. So we're going to go through your questions. We're going to do this in ten minutes.

Alex Shahrestani 00:29:10 So feel free to sugarcoat.

Tyson Mutrux 00:29:12 This is very this was fun for me. So the way you describe success was really interesting. So Maggie, you focused more on engaging, like being engaged in your life. And then Alex, you were talking about financial independence and freedom, which I think in a way are the same thing.

Tyson Mutrux 00:29:30 You just took different approaches at it. I guess the question I have for you all, though, is this the first time you all have sat down and talked about this, or is this something that you've talked about in the past?

Alex Shahrestani 00:29:40 Oh, we've talked about it a lot.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:29:42 About what success looks.

Alex Shahrestani 00:29:43 Like. Yeah. Yeah. So when, when I think I mentioned this. But when I talk about financial independence, it's really the freedom to like spend time with family and everything, which for me is like the priority. So I can see why she might say, like being engaged in her life and like, I think I think you're right that it's about the same.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:30:03 Yeah, I think it's we've talked about it before and it's, you know, I think we share a lot of the same priorities when it comes to work versus, you know, life outside of work.

Tyson Mutrux 00:30:13 Yeah. And it definitely seemed like both of you are like, you want to be engaged with your families and with each other.

Tyson Mutrux 00:30:18 And I think that that's I think that's pretty awesome. The the big change. So, Maggie, what do you think Alex said? What do you think the big change that he thought you all should make in the firm?

Maggie Shahrestani 00:30:27 I have no idea.

Tyson Mutrux 00:30:28 Yeah.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:30:29 I don't know, maybe. No, I don't know. What did she say?

Alex Shahrestani 00:30:33 You don't have any. I want to hear your guess.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:30:36 The only thing I could think is that, like, maybe doing things faster, I don't, I don't know.

Alex Shahrestani 00:30:43 That came up. Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:30:46 Interesting. Yeah, that did come up. Hire more people is. What is what Alex said. Alex, what do you what do you think Maggie said?

Alex Shahrestani 00:30:54 Oh, that is a tough one. What does Maggie think we should do? Which we should change in the firm?

Maggie Shahrestani 00:31:00 We've talked about it, but it was a it was a fleeting moment in time that we talked about it because I had to do it. And then I didn't want to do it.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:31:09 I didn't want to make my parents.

Alex Shahrestani 00:31:11 Into, oh, do litigation.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:31:16 What do you want me to.

Tyson Mutrux 00:31:17 So it was more of a more personal engagement with clients. and if I missed, by the way, if I misstate either one of you just correct me, or if you want to clarify that. But it was really less of a tech focus and more of like a more of a personal focus with clients. Is that a fair way of putting it?

Maggie Shahrestani 00:31:33 Yeah. And also the like holistic service thing. So beyond legal services, because I think, I think you and I both like really shine. Like I know I'm the more traditional lawyer, but like also we both are like very like interdisciplinary people. And I think that the firm could do really well as something like more than a law firm, like a consulting. Yeah. Enterprise.

Alex Shahrestani 00:31:54 Yeah. That's fair. I think we we have talked about that. And like the execution is kind of.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:31:59 It's hard.

Alex Shahrestani 00:31:59 To do because like it's it's taking on a whole nother facet of like presenting yourself to people and trying not to like, make it too messy.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:32:08 And it involves hiring people.

Alex Shahrestani 00:32:10 Yeah.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:32:11 That's true. So there's.

Alex Shahrestani 00:32:13 That. Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:32:14 So that was something I was going to get to, because I think you both acknowledged that, that maybe you had a resistance to hiring. But I think it's funny because you, you want more of that personal engagement with clients. And you have these you like, you both have these grand ideas and everything, but it's going to require people it sounds like. And so I guess, Maggie, what will it take for you to get over that hump? To, to to want to hire more people?

Maggie Shahrestani 00:32:37 I think it's I mean, I like to be really frank. I think it's about being willing to leverage the firm. Like, I think it's actually about being willing to take out business debt, honestly.

Tyson Mutrux 00:32:46 Okay.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:32:47 Because we are like, we're already in personal debt. So it's like, I don't know. That's honestly, I think for me it's a financial issue.

Tyson Mutrux 00:32:57 So one of the individual questions that I because I had to we had lots of questions that we wanted to ask, but with limited time we had to kind of like really narrow it down.

Tyson Mutrux 00:33:04 I was getting rid of really good questions that I thought, but one of the questions I wanted to ask and I can do it, I can ask it in the joint session is do you all think you pay yourselves enough money?

Alex Shahrestani 00:33:13 I think I would say now we do I think up for the past year or so or like the previous year or so. We had not been. And that was a function of like how we had done our hiring and like how we had sort of structured compensation for our for our team. Now I actually feel really solid about how we compensate ourselves.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:33:37 I would say that, you know, everyone would always love to make more money, right? Like, you could always use more money, but I, I feel that given what we're trying to build, we pay ourselves an appropriate amount.

Tyson Mutrux 00:33:48 Yeah. That's good.

Alex Shahrestani 00:33:49 One of the things that we we have talked about is like since, since we're like somewhat debt averse, we've taken on the perspective of like, okay, well, I guess that means we have to take some pay cuts here and there to avoid the debt in order to make things happen.

Tyson Mutrux 00:34:07 I mean, it sounds like a good fiscal decision, to be honest with you. So that's.

Alex Shahrestani 00:34:10 We'll see. I'll get back to you in 30 years. How it all went.

Tyson Mutrux 00:34:14 Yeah. No kidding. So when it comes to, like, what the firm looks like in 15 years, and I found the answer similar but different, and I, I, I want to kind of try to find a way to kind of bridge the gap because, you know, Alex, you had more of like this, these, you know, pop up offices. And I don't know if that's the phrase you used or if that's one that hub and spoke right. Where you have these affiliations. May have been the word that you used with these other. I don't know if there are other entities, other firms or whatever. And but Maggie, your your approach was it sounded similar, but you wanted to be in multiple industries. And so help me, help me sort of reconcile that. Are you all.

Tyson Mutrux 00:34:53 Is this something you all are on the same page on this something you discussed? Or are these two vision, two separate visions for what you want the firm to be?

Maggie Shahrestani 00:35:01 I think they are different visions, but I think we're at the point where both of us are open to either. Right? It's like a matter of like how how are things going to play.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:35:11 Out.

Alex Shahrestani 00:35:11 For different industries? Are you talking about different practice areas?

Maggie Shahrestani 00:35:15 Yeah. Well, kind of like in line with the whole, like, consulting thing.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:35:19 Yeah.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:35:20 Having like, healthcare consulting.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:35:21 And.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:35:22 Tech startup consulting and whatever else.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:35:25 You know. Yeah.

Alex Shahrestani 00:35:26 Yeah, I think it's similar. It's like what the final landing place will be is like, what is different? It's like the same structure where we sort of have this expansive, sort of like fractal nature and where I sort of see what I anticipate being the best path forward is different niches of practice area that then can lean on each other. But I could also see we have discussed this a little bit different types of approaches to industry.

Alex Shahrestani 00:35:57 So like you said, the interdisciplinary thing, I think that's fair.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:36:01 I think they are two separate landing places. And I think it's sort of an open question which one we.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:36:08 We're facing.

Alex Shahrestani 00:36:09 We're facing a couple of different open questions. So I think one of the big biggest ones is like what the next phase of growth looks like. So the first problem we solved was like when you get those influxes of growth and like it sort of grinds everything to a halt. You don't expect it to be a problem, but it is. And I think we've sort of solved that. And so now we're like, okay, well, we have this approach that works. Now what direction do we like take that in. And so yeah, I think I think we're not quite settled on what it will be.

Tyson Mutrux 00:36:39 It sounds like a good discussion for the two of you after this.

Alex Shahrestani 00:36:41 We're going to go have lunch.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:36:42 After.

Alex Shahrestani 00:36:42 The debrief.

Tyson Mutrux 00:36:44 Well, I think one of the cool things about this is it does get some of those conversations started that I think should be fun for you all.

Tyson Mutrux 00:36:50 And although I wanted to make some of this entertaining, I think that's why I asked some of the questions I did. I also think like the idea of like, like benefiting you all or kind of having these conversations. I think it should be pretty helpful. I hope so at least. But both of you said that Alex is the boss of the firm. The question I have for you, Maggie, is do you ever struggle with that?

Maggie Shahrestani 00:37:10 I guess the answer must be yes.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:37:11 Yeah.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:37:13 I think for me, it feels it feels like a decision to let Alex be the boss of the firm. Like, I think that is the best decision for us as a couple and for the firm as a whole. And so it means, though, that I do take a little bit less ownership of like some of the things like branding, for instance. Right. Like if I were doing branding, it would look different than like what we have for the firm. And you know, that plays into things like, I know, like you probably brought up that you want me to do more business development, right?

Maggie Shahrestani 00:37:46 I did.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:37:48 So but, but but it's like it's kind of hard, right? It's it doesn't feel as authentic to me. Right. So it's harder to. It feels harder or less authentic or something for me to like. So that's something I think we have to sort of figure out a little bit.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:38:02 I mean.

Alex Shahrestani 00:38:02 I think that's like part of what's going on with the the tech focus and the less personal touch is honestly, like a lot of the business development I think comes about because of like personal brand, right. Like people in town know me and like, they know I'm like the tech guy. And so trying to, like, divorce. The business from me as a person, I think lends itself to other people just stepping in and making it what they want. Like going in and being like, I'm an attorney with this firm and I'm bringing me to this conversation to develop you as a client, and I will be working with you in this way and not necessarily coming back and being suddenly like the Alex Show, which I think is not scalable.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:38:45 Right.

Tyson Mutrux 00:38:46 Do you think that, Alex, that maybe adopting some more of Maggie's ideas might help that more of a joint venture as opposed to just being the Alex Show?

Maggie Shahrestani 00:38:54 Yeah.

Alex Shahrestani 00:38:55 So I will say, like, for as much as I am the boss, like, I really do respect Maggie's opinion and everything I decide like almost without without exception, I run by her and I get her take and I, I get her feedback. There are some things though where like I will, I will seek feedback and sometimes you'll even like, say like, you know, I think I think you should decide because this would be totally different than what I would do. And like, there's probably some room there for like figuring out how to, like, actually just bring you into it. Like we've talked about like perhaps I mean, this has been sort of like fleeting discussions, but me stepping away from the firm temporarily to let it breathe and like, have Maggie fully at the helm to to let it mature.

Alex Shahrestani 00:39:42 And then, like, I can come back at a certain point and we can figure out what worked and what didn't and continue forward from there.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:39:49 But yeah, I think I think a lot of it is life circumstance too. Like, I don't I don't see what's happening as like Alex holding on to the firm and not let it. It's if anything, it's the opposite. Like Alex is like, come help me, let's use your ideas. And I'm more like, well, no, let's let it be your thing, you know? So it's it's an ongoing thing.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:40:11 I.

Tyson Mutrux 00:40:13 I do wonder what the what you think the firm would look like if Maggie ran the firm.

Alex Shahrestani 00:40:17 I think some of what I've like, I don't know what it would be, but some of the bars would fall away. Like I'm the kind of guy that will, like, spin a lot of plates and get things going, and then like, certain things work and certain things don't. And like, I eventually cut the things that don't.

Alex Shahrestani 00:40:31 But I think Maggie would be quicker to identify some of those. I think she would also tighten up a lot of things, like, I think she would probably spot some gaps that I am like, not as capable of identifying, like particularly in managing people. I think that would be a really good thing for the firm. Yeah, I'm sure there would be some things where I'd be like, hey, we should be taking a little bit more risk here. But, you know, I don't know that that's a bad thing. Like, I think like the business should be something that can stand on its own two feet. And if, like me, stepping away kills it, then I've been doing it wrong.

Tyson Mutrux 00:41:06 Yeah. Maggie, would you agree with that?

Maggie Shahrestani 00:41:08 Yeah, I think that's a pretty good summary. I mean, I think I think there'd be less. I mean, just because of who we are. Like, there'd be less of a focus on the tech stuff like the the internal tech tools.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:41:18 I mean, like how we run things. Obviously I'd have to get up to speed on more. But but yeah, I think I think we definitely have a different approach.

Tyson Mutrux 00:41:27 It's very clear that you will have a very good working relationship, or at least it seems to. And that's I think it's awesome. Some things that came up was the risk. Sounds like Alex more of a risk taker. Maggie. Less of a risk taker, which is I think that that's a sort of a normal thing. I know that, Alex. You you were hoping you want you would like for Maggie to be a bigger risk taker. I think that was one of the things. Be a little less cautious. Maggie, you said that you you kind of wanted Alex to kind of narrow his focus down a little bit. He's got so many great ideas to maybe focus on, you know, five of those ideas as opposed to, you know, all 20 of them at a time. I think that that's like, that's pretty good.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:42:07 Yeah. I told him you dropped 15 of your 20 ideas.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:42:11 You can make more progress on five. Yeah, but I can't.

Alex Shahrestani 00:42:14 It's it's how I learn.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:42:16 I know, I know.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:42:17 And I said that too. I said, that's what makes you you.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:42:20 Yeah.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:42:20 So I'm not sure it's even possible.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:42:21 Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:42:22 But it's sound advice, though. I think that that's its sound advice. This is something so and I think that Alex knows this because you hinted at this and it's, it's Maggie your approach to and I don't know if maybe if a new idea comes up or something like that, but you're whenever you give feedback, it seems that your approach, you kind of want Alex to understand your position like and that you're not you're not criticizing. You just need more information. So will you. I this is I kind of want to give you an opportunity, Maggie, to kind of talk to Alex and tell him, like, kind of like when you were approaching something like that.

Tyson Mutrux 00:42:56 It comes from a good place. And I think Alex knows he kind of mentioned that. So you want to talk about that a little bit, how you're not doing it because you have a you don't like the idea.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:43:05 I'm.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:43:05 Not tearing.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:43:06 You apart. Yeah, yeah.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:43:08 Yeah. I think I mean, this is we've talked about this before, but yeah. When when Alex has an idea, I tend to want the like I want to be able to write a textbook on the idea, right? And so I want I want to know all of like everything about how it's going to work. And so my initial my initial start is like the way that I react is questions. Right. Like that is like my first response is like questions that can sometimes come across to you as attacks. And attempts to kind of like undermine.

Alex Shahrestani 00:43:39 Yeah I think it's like also a day to day thing. Right. It's like if if my cup runneth over like then I'm more likely to feel attacked.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:43:48 I feel like, you know.

Tyson Mutrux 00:43:49 Yeah.

Alex Shahrestani 00:43:50 But yeah.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:43:51 I know.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:43:51 He knows it. He knows it in his head. She doesn't always.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:43:54 She finished.

Alex Shahrestani 00:43:55 She finished law school with a dual degree. And like, the day after, she was like, maybe I'll go get a PhD. And I was like, you just spent most your entire life in.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:44:04 School and love. I would love to be.

Alex Shahrestani 00:44:05 And your first instinct is to go get a PhD. And like.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:44:09 You know.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:44:09 I just want to think about things.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:44:11 And tear them apart.

Tyson Mutrux 00:44:12 That's I love.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:44:13 It. I am, I am deaf.

Tyson Mutrux 00:44:16 So the last question I have for you all this is I'm gonna give both of you the opportunity on this one. so either one of you can go first. But what's one thing that is amazing about the other one that you'll never be able to match? So this is, you get to talk up the other one, so whoever wants to go first.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:44:34 But this is this is a good.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:44:36 Structure.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:44:36 To recover. Yeah.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:44:39 It's a it's a good idea to end with this question in case you've really created a lot of friction.

Tyson Mutrux 00:44:46 Exactly. That's exactly right. So if we had more time, I'd ask you a lot more about this stuff, because I did want to kind of give you a chance to kind of like it really kind of talk each other up, too. I think that this is, this should be a building moment, not something that does, you know, tear, tear each other down, but. So. So what is one of you? Whoever wants to go first, what's one thing that's amazing about the other? That that you don't think you'll ever build a match?

Maggie Shahrestani 00:45:07 I can go first. Okay. I think Alex's appreciation for possibility Ability is something I will never match. Like even in just the day to day stuff. I'll feel like you know, there are only two options for to to solve a problem. And Alex, I'll talk about it with Alex and I'll be like, wait, but what about this or that? And I'm like, oh, I never thought about I never thought about that.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:45:30 Like, he he makes me feel like there's there's a lot of, like there are a lot of choices in a good way. And I'm not so constrained, I think.

Alex Shahrestani 00:45:40 Cool. Yeah. For me, one of the things that I've always appreciated about Maggie is how like just just brilliant she is. She's like so smart. She is so good at, like, capturing complex ideas and like, boiling them down and and then she's like an excellent communicator as well, you know, even even when we're, like, having difficult discussions like about what's going on internally. Like, I feel like you do a good job of being fairly like, very clear and like it's like you reach across the aisle somehow with how you communicate to like, invite people in. And that's like both professionally and personally and like, especially like when we're hanging out with our friend groups. Like, I often get a chance to appreciate how she's able to, like, navigate conversations so well and like, you know, sort of bring she like, she connects people.

Alex Shahrestani 00:46:33 And I love that about her.

Tyson Mutrux 00:46:35 That's awesome. Really good. Well, thank you both for doing this and being open and sharing and taking this risk with me. So really appreciate it.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:46:42 I like that we can't afford therapy. So this.

Tyson Mutrux 00:46:44 Is great.

Tyson Mutrux 00:46:51 Well, I may have really missed you all up because I'm not I have no training. So you're, you're in trouble. You're in trouble. Well, thank you both for doing that. I really appreciate it.

Maggie Shahrestani 00:46:58 All right. Thanks.

Alex Shahrestani 00:46:59 Thanks, Tyson.