Maximum Lawyer

Tyson Mutrux 00:00:02 This is maximum lawyer with your host, Tyson Matrix.

Tyson Mutrux 00:00:12 Today we're wrapping up our special three part series where I talk to couples who not only live together, but run law firms together. We wanted to know what that actually looks like behind the scenes, where they're aligned, where they butt heads and how they handle the business and the marriage at the same time. For each episode, I interview both partners separately, then bring them together at the end to see what happens when they hear each other's answers. It's raw, it's honest, and some of the answers are going to surprise you and they surprise each other. But it's all about getting them together on the same page to grow their business as a united front. Today you're going to hear from Nicole and Caleb. Nicole is a powerhouse trial attorney, and she's also the one shaping the brand, leading the team and driving growth at the firm. We talk about leadership, control, and what it's like being the face of a business you're building with your spouse.

Tyson Mutrux 00:01:05 Then I sat down with Caleb. He brings a calm, thoughtful perspective to both life and business. We talk about ownership, communication, and how he approaches building a business that supports both the work and the life. He and Nicole are creating together. This is a really fun one. So let's jump in to the final episode of the series.

Speaker 3 00:01:26 No marriages were harmed in the making of this podcast episode.

Tyson Mutrux 00:01:30 All right, Nicole, thank you for doing this. First question is, what does success look like to you.

Nicole Payne 00:01:37 Having time to spend the way you want it to want to spend it?

Tyson Mutrux 00:01:41 Can you elaborate a little bit on in what ways do you want to spend your time.

Nicole Payne 00:01:45 With family traveling?

Tyson Mutrux 00:01:47 Okay. Next question. What's one big change you'd make to the firm right now if it were only up to you?

Nicole Payne 00:01:53 I would roll out a partnership program immediately.

Tyson Mutrux 00:01:56 Oh, interesting. What would that be? I'm curious what the what the partnership program is.

Nicole Payne 00:02:00 So we have had amazing attorneys here who have really given it their all for many years now, and it excites me to think that they could buy in and we could grow the company together.

Nicole Payne 00:02:14 I think we've gotten to a point where we're a little bit bigger than two people can handle, and we just want to. I want to be able to roll out this partnership structure where attorneys can buy in if they've been with us for a certain amount of years and, you know, they would, they would, they would own less of a percentage than Caleb and I would. But I just think it would be nice to have a a larger think tank and, you know, brain power behind some of these next moves that we have for growing the firm in the future.

Tyson Mutrux 00:02:44 It's very interesting. At some point, I'd love to hear more about that. That sounds like a really cool idea. What does success look like to you?

Caleb Payne 00:02:52 Good balance, work life balance. Creating something meaningful. You know, finding satisfaction and, in what you do in your work product. Creating value and putting it out into the world.

Tyson Mutrux 00:03:05 Okay. Creating something meaningful. What do you mean?

Caleb Payne 00:03:08 Doing something or producing something that has.

Caleb Payne 00:03:12 A net positive impact on not just yourself or not just your company, but the community or, you know, the world at large, perhaps in sort of a macro definition.

Tyson Mutrux 00:03:25 That makes sense. I'm going to give you a magic wand. I'm telling you the exact same thing I'm telling everybody else. So I'm gonna give you a magic wand and you get to decide what the firm looks like in 15 years. And so describe what the firm looks like.

Nicole Payne 00:03:39 We have a department for everything. Each department has more than one head. So where you have a head, but you have, like, a team. So it's not just one person that knows how to do the management from the top. And then of course, a team underneath them. I would like to have more than one practice area that's built up. Right now. We have one that's extremely built up and a few other areas that we're trying to build up, but I'd like for those areas to be the same level that we currently operate in this practice area.

Nicole Payne 00:04:13 That is our the bulk of our practice. And I'd like to be in multiple states and have similar office structures in those states as well.

Tyson Mutrux 00:04:21 What states do you want to be in.

Nicole Payne 00:04:22 Colorado, Connecticut, New York, new Jersey, Alabama, South Carolina, North Carolina, Texas, and maybe California? A little ambitious, but maybe California too.

Tyson Mutrux 00:04:34 I like it. So this is another magic wand question, right? So you get to decide what the firm looks like in 15 years. Okay. Describe what it looks like.

Caleb Payne 00:04:46 Offices in multiple states. You know, we would have maybe ten partners or so that we can promote internally. I, you know, larger scale helping. I think the number that last year and the year before, we think we resolved about a thousand cases, give or take. I think it was around 1200 the year before. So yeah, just more reach, more bandwidth, more clients.

Tyson Mutrux 00:05:14 What states do you want to be in?

Caleb Payne 00:05:15 Colorado, Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, Texas?

Tyson Mutrux 00:05:23 Who would you say is the boss of the firm? And what I really I'm not talking about titles.

Tyson Mutrux 00:05:28 I'm really talking about when it comes to really who makes the decision. When it comes down to it, who's the boss?

Nicole Payne 00:05:33 I would say I'm more of the boss. Of course, you know Caleb is as well, but I'm more in the day to day. I think people come to me for decision making a little bit more than they they go to Caleb.

Tyson Mutrux 00:05:45 What do you think that is?

Nicole Payne 00:05:46 Because I'm really passionate about it, and I think people can see that.

Tyson Mutrux 00:05:49 Okay. All right. I want to know who the who's the boss of the firm. And I'm not talking about the titles or anything else I'm talking about when it comes down to to making a decision and whoever has the final word on it. Who's the boss?

Caleb Payne 00:06:01 Once I was in Marco Island and I was working on a Hurricane Irma case. This is in 2017, and I was sitting at a seafood restaurant, and this older gentleman at 50s age pulls up in a boat with his family. His wife and his kids were grown and his grandkids were there, and there was hardly anybody else there.

Caleb Payne 00:06:20 So he sat next to me and we started talking. And at the time I was working for another firm, a medium to large sized firm, doing the exact same thing that I do now. And I had been thinking of going on my own, and Nicole had been on her own since law school, and she had been persuading me to leave and go on my own as well. But I had some large cases, multi-million dollar cases, which I had a pretty significant financial interest in, and I wasn't ready to leave until those were done. And at the time, I remember I was talking to this guy and he was telling me about how he had started a business with his wife and they at the time. When they started, they had normal corporate square jobs. They had small kids. They were in debt. They went into a whole bunch more debt to start this business. And everybody was telling them that they're crazy. And it worked out very well for them. And he was had this amazing life.

Caleb Payne 00:07:09 And he was on this awesome center console yellowfin and just, you know, chilling in Marco Island. And, you know, I was kind of just getting some advice from him. And he was saying, you know, this is the this is what we went through. And everybody thought that we were crazy and told us that we were crazy, that when we did it because of the timing and everything else. But, you know, if you can make it work, it really is the best thing ever. Because if you've already got a life partner, if you can, you know, be in business with them too. Why not? So with that said, there's certain things in our business that will fall on me, and it's it's my decision and only my decision. And there are certain things that fall on Nicole, and it's her decision. It's only her decision. And I stay out of that stuff and she stays out of the other stuff. So I think it's pretty Be difficult to say if there was one person who was the boss.

Caleb Payne 00:07:58 But, you know, we always kind of joke around that Nicole's the boss. So I think there's there's some truth in Jess there.

Tyson Mutrux 00:08:05 Okay.

Caleb Payne 00:08:06 But she might say opposite, I don't know.

Tyson Mutrux 00:08:09 Okay. How did the idea of the two of you working together first come up?

Nicole Payne 00:08:13 So Caleb and I met in law school. we were friends for a very long time before we started dating and then eventually got married. And it wasn't until we had our first kid that I convinced him to leave his firm and join my firm and work together, because I had been out on my own since law school, and I just saw a tremendous opportunity if we were to collaborate. So, it was, you know, around 2019 when we started working together and that was, you know, a time where he was home a lot because our son was born and we were kind of just, you know, two attorneys living under the same roof just talking about cases and bouncing ideas off of each other. And that's when I just convinced him, you know, it was time.

Nicole Payne 00:08:59 You know, he was trying to hang on to. Oh, no, I got to settle a few cases first and, you know, but then I finally got through to him and we started working together. And that's how it came up, really.

Tyson Mutrux 00:09:10 Was there any specific thing that happened that that convinced him to to finally make the switch we had?

Nicole Payne 00:09:16 Well, I think it helped that he had a referral source that was using him exclusively, and he knew that it would be enough to support him if he were to go out on his own. And I was really eager to, to help him with the practice. So I think he he knew that if he were to, to leave, he would have business and then he would have someone to help him work it and, you know, tackle it with.

Tyson Mutrux 00:09:42 How did the idea of the two of you working together first come up?

Caleb Payne 00:09:46 I think it was all Nicole, to be honest. I think it was her idea and she brought it up and she continued to bring it up.

Caleb Payne 00:09:54 And, you know, eventually when I was ready, we made it happen. And, we went about it slowly at first. And then our, our first child was just a few months old when I went on my own. And after he turned two, she came to work full time. And that's kind of when things really started to take off for us.

Tyson Mutrux 00:10:14 It seems like a very stressful time that you're leaving another place. You're coming to work with the spouse and you've got a newborn. That was it, as stressful as it sounds.

Caleb Payne 00:10:24 We also bought a house. And we had got married just slightly. We got married in November 2017, bought a house in May of 2018. Our son was born in November 2018. Left the firm. Started the new firm in March or April of 2019. So there was a lot of things happening in a short period of time. And, you know, looking back on it now, I don't feel like it was any more or less stressful than I'm sitting here today, to be honest.

Caleb Payne 00:10:57 Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:10:58 That's good. That's that's a good thing. Especially it doesn't seem like it was like a traumatic event for you. That's. That's good.

Caleb Payne 00:11:05 Yeah. Yeah. One of my gifts, I guess you could call it, is this stuff doesn't really bother me as much as it bothers other people. I do get stressed out sometimes, like for trials and things like that, but I kind of have a unique ability to compartmentalize and not worry about these things.

Tyson Mutrux 00:11:23 What's one thing you wish Caleb would stop doing in the business?

Nicole Payne 00:11:28 Yawning during meetings.

Tyson Mutrux 00:11:32 Tell me more about this. Is this a is this a problem?

Nicole Payne 00:11:35 It's it's I wouldn't say it's a problem because I've actually never brought it up to him. I've kicked him under the table a few times. But yeah, he's not a big fan of meetings. He does it because it's it's necessary, but we can see it all over his face when he's either not into it or thinking about other things that he needs to be doing or, you know, just didn't get enough sleep the night before or something like that.

Tyson Mutrux 00:12:00 Very interesting. What the maybe dive a little more into that in the joint session. What's one thing you wish Nicole would stop doing in the business?

Caleb Payne 00:12:08 Making me work so much. Stop doing so much. That's tough.

Tyson Mutrux 00:12:16 And remember, she will hear this.

Caleb Payne 00:12:18 Yeah, I know. I mean, I can make a lot of jokes right now. I mean, there's there was a time where I thought we were not that we we never really have spent a lot of money on advertising compared to some of the other firms that our size. I think we spend a very small amount of advertising compared to what our revenue is, compared to a lot of firms that are our size. there have been times in the past, I don't think I feel like that right at this moment, but there have been times in the past where I thought that we were taking on too much, or maybe that we were expanding too fast, hiring too many people, taking too many new meetings with new potential clients or referral sources.

Caleb Payne 00:12:51 And, you know, I maybe I might have disagreed with that with her at those times. I think right now I wouldn't really feel that way. If she wants to do it, she wants to do it to expand. I'm okay with that. Yeah. And, it's hard for me to think of a specific thing that I can't that I, that I would wish she would stop doing. To be honest. Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:13:11 Describe Caleb's work style in one word.

Nicole Payne 00:13:14 Unraveled.

Tyson Mutrux 00:13:15 Oh, that's a good one. That's the first time I've heard that one, so that's good. Tell me what you mean.

Nicole Payne 00:13:19 He's calm. Cool. Collected. Always. which is a great balance for a lot of the attorneys here. He doesn't get super stressed out. I mean, he he could be preparing for a trial for the first time ever to try a case, and he's not stressed about it one bit. you know, he could be dealing with difficult clients, difficult opposing counsel's difficult scenarios that you deal with as an owner of a firm and he is almost never bothered by it.

Nicole Payne 00:13:52 And yeah, he's just not stressed at all.

Tyson Mutrux 00:13:55 All right, so describe Nicole's work style in one word.

Caleb Payne 00:13:58 Entrepreneurial.

Tyson Mutrux 00:13:59 Explain what you mean.

Caleb Payne 00:14:01 Well, her dad was an entrepreneur. He was a developer here in town and ran a many successful businesses. He's he's mostly retired now. And her mom owns and operates two hair salons in town. So as well as several members of her family have, you know, she comes from a family of people who have are entrepreneurs and start businesses and run and grow businesses and that sort of thing. So she looks at the business from from that point of view, she has a much more of a business oriented perspective than I do.

Tyson Mutrux 00:14:38 What would you then how would you describe your perspective?

Caleb Payne 00:14:40 I'm a big picture guy. I kind of just see where things are going. I see trends and patterns and try to, you know, align our our goals and our vision with the way that I think the the wind is blowing.

Tyson Mutrux 00:14:56 What's one way you and Caleb butt heads at work?

Nicole Payne 00:15:00 I've actually been pretty good.

Nicole Payne 00:15:02 Maybe when I try to bounce an idea off of him and have him try to help me with the decision making, and he is kind of nonchalant about it, doesn't really seem to care whether the, you know, I say yes or no or make one decision over another. He's kind of a little bit more hands off. So maybe we butt heads where I'm like, want him to be a little bit more hands on?

Tyson Mutrux 00:15:28 Okay. What's one way that you and Nicole butt heads at work?

Caleb Payne 00:15:31 One thing in the business.

Tyson Mutrux 00:15:33 Yep. I mean, it could be as simple as someone doesn't empty the dishes. Dishwasher in the in the kitchen at the office or something, but.

Caleb Payne 00:15:39 Well, there is no dishwasher. Yeah. Let me see if I can answer this without embarrassing myself. I guess maybe the who's the handling of the extremely difficult things that come up, maybe hiring people or hiring people. All of the litigation stuff usually falls on me, so I don't expect her to do any of that.

Caleb Payne 00:16:04 Yeah, I would say just administer like the difficult administrative type things that can't be delegated.

Tyson Mutrux 00:16:09 What's the biggest business decision that the two of you have disagreed on and how did it play out? And I know you said the two of you, for the most part, it's been pretty smooth, but I'm sure there's been something that's come up as you. But since you've started the firm, that maybe has led to some disagreement where you had to one of you had to kind of put your foot down.

Nicole Payne 00:16:28 I have fought for an employee for many years. and Caleb maybe didn't see the value that I saw in this employee. So it was a lot of me trying to just convince him like that. We should keep this person, pay this person more. And you know, he. He ended up being right. But it's definitely something that we've butted heads on. And, you know, this person was an integral part of our business and had a very executive type role. So it was, you know, something that came up often.

Tyson Mutrux 00:17:02 Interesting. Where do you think why do you think you fought so hard? And because you said he was right. So I wonder, like, if you had blinders on or what do you think? What made you wrong about it? Why? Why were you wrong and why was he right?

Nicole Payne 00:17:14 He's more big picture. And I, I do think I had blinders on because I was really using this person as like my go to right hand, assigning a lot of things, delegating things to this person. So it was a I was just closer to the situation than he was. So I think I just maybe was a little bit more. I wouldn't I don't want to say manipulated, but didn't see like the big picture like he did.

Tyson Mutrux 00:17:43 That's fair. Of the things that you have. butted heads on. What would you say is the biggest business decision that the two of you have disagreed on, and how did it end up playing out?

Caleb Payne 00:17:56 Yeah, of course I was right about all of them.

Tyson Mutrux 00:17:58 Of course, you know, there was one not to give you too much. There was something that you all disagreed on, and she said you were right. So you have it. You have a recording of her saying that you were right, just so you know.

Caleb Payne 00:18:10 So this one is kind of is just fresh. So I'll go ahead with I may not have been the biggest, but we just recently moved offices and I have worked in law firms since I was 20 years old, and I've assisted in law firms moving before. So I said, we are going to outsource this move no matter the cost. I will not be involved. I'm not going to be involved no matter what, whether we try to do this internally or we outsource it. I'm not moving a thing because I made my stance known. I don't care the cost. Pay it. Let them do it professionally. We tried to cut corners and save money because of operations manager that Nicole sided with. To make a long story short, we should have gone my way.

Caleb Payne 00:18:54 We're in the office now, and it's beautiful and fine, but the amount of money that was saved, I think, in the long term, was negligible compared to some of the the difficulties that we experienced during the move. So that'd be one. That's the only one I can think of off the top of my head.

Tyson Mutrux 00:19:09 What are the rules about talking about work at home or during non office hours?

Nicole Payne 00:19:14 We don't have a set rule. We try not to. But every now and then we get a moment when we are alone at home or like in the car driving somewhere and we usually know when it's the right time to talk about work. And you know, we could just talk about it for hours or we just don't talk about it at all.

Tyson Mutrux 00:19:34 Does one of you tend to talk about work at times where it's maybe not as appropriate, or whenever the other one's not really expecting it?

Nicole Payne 00:19:41 I don't think so. We're both Pretty good about it.

Tyson Mutrux 00:19:44 Oh. Very good. Nice. That's. That's excellent.

Tyson Mutrux 00:19:46 Really good. What are the rules about talking about work at a home or during non non work hours?

Caleb Payne 00:19:53 Now that is okay. There's one that we butt heads about because she wants to do that all the time. And I'm like a hard stop. Like I won't think I won't even entertain the most elemental questions if I'm, you know, punched out. Not that we're ever really, truly punched out as a business owner. I'm looking at emails, you know, late at night, early in the morning and stuff, too. Yeah, I I'll, I'm definitely guilty of of, you know, I don't want to say blowing her off, but she wants to talk about something, and I'm just like, look, I'm I'm done. I'm. You gotta you gotta table this for now. So. Yeah, that's I. Yeah, we're butting heads about work, about talking work after hours or at home. That's probably the most common thing.

Tyson Mutrux 00:20:37 Do you actually have set rules where, like, no talking about work at home or in the bedroom anything like that.

Tyson Mutrux 00:20:43 Are there any set rules that you have?

Caleb Payne 00:20:45 No, no, nothing set in stone. But, you know, usually from, you know, the time when I'm, I also I try to never let my kids see me on the phone. So if I'm at home and the kids are home, like, I'm not working.

Tyson Mutrux 00:21:02 I like that. That's a that's a good rule. I'm not good. I'm not very good at that. But that's I think that's a good one. Yeah.

Caleb Payne 00:21:07 Nobody is. And I'm not perfect at it. It's it's just it's something I kind of should strive to do.

Tyson Mutrux 00:21:12 Tell me about a time you don't give me too many specifics, but tell me about a time you had a fight at home that affected your day at the office. Or vice versa.

Nicole Payne 00:21:21 Okay, so one morning I was getting ready for work, and he can be very much of a jokester at home, so he was just probably trying to annoy me, and I was probably trying to get ready for an important day at the office where we had like a big meeting and I had to be on my A game.

Nicole Payne 00:21:39 So I just wanted to focus, you know, I was being really serious and he was just kind of pestering me at home, pushing my buttons. I probably, you know, said something not too nice to him. And then that caused a fight where he, you know, he was like, hey, you know, you're crossing the line and, you know, then I got to work and, you know, don't like leaving the house like that. Got to work and was more thrown off by, you know, the way that we left things as opposed to, you know, if I would have just joked around with him or something. So, yeah, that that's like a typical morning in our house where he's just joking around and I'm, I'm trying to be all serious.

Tyson Mutrux 00:22:18 You're trying to get your game face on and he's, you know, he's just joking around, messing around. So I get it. Tell me about a time you had a fight at home that affected your day at the office, or vice versa.

Caleb Payne 00:22:30 We just recently lost someone. Had to let someone go. However you want to say it, she had worked with us. This person had worked with us since the beginning, and it was a very difficult separation. It needed to be done, but it, you know, had a pretty heavy emotional toll, especially on Nicole. They were closer than I was. And so something like that. When that happens at work, you don't escape it at home. And ultimately it's for the better at work. I think the environment is much better at work, and we know that we made the right decision and she's happy with it. But it was pretty emotional last couple of weeks or so. You know, we wish you the best. And it was a difficult decision. And she really helped us a lot, helped the firm a lot. And, you know, it was bittersweet. But, yeah, I mean, it does happen. I can't say we're. Nicole and I are pretty good about, you know, when we do have disagreements, arguments or if you want to call them fights, we can usually let them go pretty quickly.

Caleb Payne 00:23:27 I don't think we've ever really had anything that, you know, we didn't weren't able to resolve before we went to sleep that night.

Tyson Mutrux 00:23:35 That's good. Very good. What would you, I guess. How would you describe Caleb's leadership style? And what would you tweak about it?

Nicole Payne 00:23:43 He's very like he builds kind of like a family environment around him. He's very, very generous. He's a very generous boss. And as far as leader, I would say maybe if he could be a little bit more proactive and structured in his leadership, I think it would be it would go a long way. He kind of just as it comes to him, has like natural leadership skills and his great quotes. And he's he can be motivational. But if you know, if I could tweak it, it would be let's channel that into a way we can make it more structured and part of your daily routine so that we can get you out in front of as many people in the firm as possible, so you know, you can rub off on them.

Tyson Mutrux 00:24:30 Got it. Probably. Probably. Good advice. Well, how would you describe her leadership style and what would you tweak about it?

Caleb Payne 00:24:37 This would be a good question to ask the staff. She's a very good negotiator. just kind of has a commanding presence and, you know, high self monitor. A lot of good qualities of a leader. One thing I could tweak about her, I think she works too much. She needs to go to the spa more. Get some hobbies.

Tyson Mutrux 00:25:00 Okay. Where do you think that Caleb thrives? In the business.

Nicole Payne 00:25:05 his legal abilities. I think when he's in unique legal situations, you know, more complex cases when he's challenged, when he's, you know, like hearings. You know, anything in court? I think that's where he thrives.

Tyson Mutrux 00:25:21 Do you think that he spends most of his time doing that, or do you think too much of his time is spent on doing other things?

Nicole Payne 00:25:28 Other things? I wouldn't say he spends much time on it. I mean, we're we're trying to work on the business, not in the business.

Nicole Payne 00:25:36 So, you know, he doesn't take that many cases anymore. So, you know, it's it's difficult because he he needs to do like higher level things. So it's hard for him to have a full caseload. And, you know, being on a court all the time and you know settling cases. It's it's not something he can really do that much of anymore. So yeah. No, but he really doesn't spend much time on it I would say ten hours a week maybe.

Tyson Mutrux 00:26:01 Where do you think that she, she thrives in the business.

Caleb Payne 00:26:04 Client relations. Clients love her people. You know, she's good at selling.

Tyson Mutrux 00:26:10 And do you think that that's where she spends most of her time?

Caleb Payne 00:26:12 That's what we are trying to get her to spend most of her time on, on the business as opposed to in the business. But there's there's still a lot of day to day admin stuff that she's involved in because there's, there's just it's a big operation, you know.

Tyson Mutrux 00:26:26 What's something running a law firm with Caleb has taught you about your marriage.

Tyson Mutrux 00:26:30 I think it's funny, your your pores and your smile. It was like, I probably shouldn't say that. So I'm very curious what you're about to say, but I don't believe it was. You're. You're about to say whatever the second thing was. Because the first thing I feel like you're not going to say what it is. But anyways, go ahead.

Nicole Payne 00:26:44 I think it's taught me a lot of humility, and I think that that alone, like, goes a long way in a marriage. You know, if you, you know, married couples are always building resentment towards one another where it's like, no, I feel like I do the dishes all the time and I'm always cooking dinner and I'm taking after the kids, or it's a I have to do all the work and bring all the money home. Or, you know, it's taught me that you can you have to have respect for one another in the marriage as well as in partnerships and at work. So I think I've learned a lot working with him just as far as like patience and respect goes.

Tyson Mutrux 00:27:20 What's something that running a law firm with Nicole has taught you about your marriage?

Caleb Payne 00:27:25 I'm just blessed. We're blessed. It's, It's honestly, I don't know if ever in my wildest dreams, I would have imagined that it would have worked out this good. you know, we were. It's a different kind of. Different kind of happy, I guess. You know, I was very happy when our son was born, and I left the firm and I had 30 cases and no employees, and our profit margin was like 75, 80%. That was awesome. I didn't really have to do anything, but I, you know, now we're we're servicing way more clients now, you know, we're providing a better life for ourselves and our family. We've got an awesome team here who loves to work here, and we take care of them. And we've created kind of this, this whole little culture, that kind of, you know, supersedes our own individual cells. And that's kind of a special thing as far.

Caleb Payne 00:28:18 I don't know if that answers your question. I guess, things evolve and and you have to, you have to be ready to adapt and ready to change, and grow and learn and adjust and, yeah, I think you can look at marriage and business sort of the same in a lot of those regards.

Tyson Mutrux 00:28:36 What's one thing you wish Caleb really understood about you and how you operate?

Nicole Payne 00:28:41 He knows this about me already. But, like words of encouragement. Words of affirmation. Like, I love hearing that from him. So this is just a reminder to Caleb that I do love to hear that from him, especially, you know, that's where the words matter the most is from the people that I love. So, you know, just if he could remember that from time to time because he's not really like that, you know, he's not a he doesn't need to hear that from me.

Tyson Mutrux 00:29:06 So what's one thing you wish Nicole really understood about how you operate?

Caleb Payne 00:29:11 You know, I think Nicole understands me perfectly.

Caleb Payne 00:29:14 We've been married since 2017, and we were friends for, like, six years before that. So we've known each other now for a good bit. And, you know, we were we were very close friends before we got married. And so I think that there's not a whole lot of misunderstandings when it comes to her and, you know, my professional career.

Tyson Mutrux 00:29:35 All right. Thank you all for doing this. And I kind of mentioned this to Nicole before we started the whole idea. I know some of these questions seem kind of tricky and all that, but the really the whole idea is to really kind of build you all up together. And even though some of these questions might have been tricky, I think you both answered them well. And I think that when you really listen to this, I think you'll both get more of an appreciation for each other. So the interesting things there was when you talked about success, it was interesting. The states, you you all both said very similar things about, you know, success, but also like the growth of the firm where you went ahead.

Tyson Mutrux 00:30:09 The states were different, though, if I remember correctly, I didn't list all of them. So, Nicole, what states did you want to be in in 15 years?

Nicole Payne 00:30:16 So I said New York, new Jersey, Connecticut, Alabama, North Carolina, South Carolina, Texas, and possibly California.

Tyson Mutrux 00:30:25 Okay, they were similar. I don't know if you had the northern states, Caleb, did you.

Caleb Payne 00:30:29 I didn't say anything.

Caleb Payne 00:30:31 She didn't say Colorado. We're already in.

Nicole Payne 00:30:32 Colorado. We're already in Colorado.

Caleb Payne 00:30:34 But we're not making any money there.

Nicole Payne 00:30:35 So.

Caleb Payne 00:30:35 Not sure I'd like to make.

Tyson Mutrux 00:30:36 Money, though. Gotcha. So I did find that part interesting because you had the northern states included in there, but the Colorado was missing as well. I thought that was kind of kind of fun. It's interesting because there's a common trend, and I kind of picked up on this from talking to both of you. Nicole, you're very serious, very business oriented, and I feel like. Caleb, you like to joke a lot, and you're more like the fun guy.

Tyson Mutrux 00:30:58 Is that how things are?

Nicole Payne 00:30:59 Definitely.

Caleb Payne 00:31:01 Definitely.

Tyson Mutrux 00:31:02 Do you feel like that has caused some strife in the firm?

Caleb Payne 00:31:06 In the firm or at home?

Tyson Mutrux 00:31:09 Oh, I guess both.

Caleb Payne 00:31:11 Not so much at the firm. Although I think probably there are some times where she's like, oh, you just joke around and everybody loves you and you make me do all the serious stuff. And that's why I was saying, like, probably the difficult things are the most difficult things are butting heads are the distribution of the administrative type tasks that nobody wants to do and that we can't delegate because, yeah, I'm a lot less. I don't want to. I don't want to say less serious, but I yeah, I'm kind of more of a playful personality when it comes to this.

Tyson Mutrux 00:31:40 Nicole. Anything, dad.

Nicole Payne 00:31:41 I agree with him. Not really. Anything in there?

Tyson Mutrux 00:31:44 Okay, so who's the boss? This answer was funny to me. Who's the boss?

Nicole Payne 00:31:50 Answer.

Caleb Payne 00:31:52 It's. You know, there's it's we're both 50%.

Caleb Payne 00:31:55 So there's it's really there's we're both kind of equal in terms of voting shares. You ask anybody I think anybody would probably say she's the boss.

Nicole Payne 00:32:03 I'm the boss.

Tyson Mutrux 00:32:04 Yeah. Yeah.

Caleb Payne 00:32:06 Go to the next trial, then I'll go. I'll go on a golf trip.

Tyson Mutrux 00:32:11 So, Caleb, here's a question for you. Is it hard for you to admit that? Is it because it seems like it's hard for you to admit that Nicole is the boss?

Caleb Payne 00:32:18 Well, she's not really, though.

Tyson Mutrux 00:32:23 So. And listen, I'm not getting any more. I think it's fun. Who are the employees? Say is the boss?

Caleb Payne 00:32:27 That's a good question. We should. We should do an anonymous poll. Paul.

Nicole Payne 00:32:31 No, you totally should say I'm the boss. They tell me all that all the time.

Caleb Payne 00:32:36 Not in your boss. They'll call me boss, too.

Tyson Mutrux 00:32:38 I'm going to move on because I don't want to cause any strife. But the, I think you should do an anonymous fun poll and.

Tyson Mutrux 00:32:45 And just see what your see what your people say. So the the big change in the firm. This was interesting. I think you're both very mission oriented, but I think that that Nicole you are very business mission oriented. And Caleb, you are more, you know, missionary when it comes to you want to change the world almost. It seems like. Is that does that sound accurate?

Caleb Payne 00:33:08 Yes. Yeah. I wouldn't say change the world, but I know what you're like.

Nicole Payne 00:33:10 More making a.

Tyson Mutrux 00:33:11 Difference. Issue driven.

Caleb Payne 00:33:13 Issue driven?

Tyson Mutrux 00:33:14 Sure. Yeah. How did the two of those fit together when it comes to the firm?

Caleb Payne 00:33:19 Well, the business driven is is primary. Obviously, none of this could exist if it wasn't for the business angle to it. And the mission. I, you know, the issue driven aspect of it, I think is secondary. Just from a like strategical standpoint, not to say that the money is more important than, you know, putting roofs on people's houses or something like that.

Caleb Payne 00:33:42 But in terms of that, that's not necessarily the mission that I'm referring to. I'm referring to something a little bit more deeper than that.

Tyson Mutrux 00:33:48 Yeah. Well, don't you think? I mean, I think that they could work together and they could. If you think about. What's the name of that? Is it Tom's? The shoes where you buy a shoe, you give a shoe. I do think. I mean, don't you think there's a world where you could do something like that, where the business side builds the issue side?

Caleb Payne 00:34:04 I think that's what we're doing. I think that's what we're doing. Right? Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:34:08 Do you both feel like you're on the same page when it comes to that?

Caleb Payne 00:34:10 Yeah. Yes.

Tyson Mutrux 00:34:11 Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Is it something that's like, codified? We're like. We're we're kind of like the shoe thing, right? Where you buy a shoe, you have a shoe. Is there? Do you have something like that set up where so much revenue goes to some sort of cause or something like that?

Caleb Payne 00:34:25 You know, we don't have a set budget on that sort of thing.

Caleb Payne 00:34:28 And we do Oftentimes we'll have a like either we'll all go volunteer as a firm or we'll give money to various causes or charities and things like that. But I think more importantly for this conversation, our the model of our business where we're recovering insurance funds from carriers and giving it to homeowners so that they can put their home back in the shape that it was in before the loss. There's there's a Robinhood aspect to it. And so, you know, I think that we are fighting the good fight much more so than, say, the people on the other side of our cases who represented, you know, multibillion dollar insurance companies or, you know, other areas of law where it's, you know, transactional or, you know, things like that.

Tyson Mutrux 00:35:12 Nicole, you brought up the partner program. And is that something that you all have discussed previously, or is this something that if you if you were to mention it now, it's something that that Caleb would have been hearing for the first time?

Nicole Payne 00:35:23 No, we've discussed it.

Nicole Payne 00:35:24 We've touched on it briefly in the past, but more recently it's becoming more of a main topic of discussion. And, you know, it's something that I'm trying to drive and push forward. So, you know, we've talked about it plenty.

Tyson Mutrux 00:35:39 Is there any pushback from from you, Caleb, when it comes to that?

Caleb Payne 00:35:42 No, I want to do it. I want to do it. This has become such a large operation that for it to just fall on the two of us, it's it's too difficult and time consuming. And our kids are growing up fast. And the sooner we can do this, the better.

Tyson Mutrux 00:35:56 I love it. So I'm curious when it comes to, like, conflict resolution with the two of you. Like if if an issue comes up is. So sometimes you'll have like a couple that they, you know, they get in a disagreement and then they just kind of move on from it. Sometimes they have to get some people to kind of go through a process. How do you all usually deal with conflict and disagreement about things?

Caleb Payne 00:36:18 Hopefully it's something that we can talk about because, you know, that's really the only way that these things get resolved.

Caleb Payne 00:36:25 You know, if a third party mediator needs to be brought in a referee or something like that every once in a while, if it's pretty extreme. We've we've gone that route. But yeah, I don't there's really I don't, I can't think of any secret better than just kind of talking it out. And, you know, somebody's got to apologize typically. Yeah. Even if you're, you know, not in the wrong.

Nicole Payne 00:36:47 Right. We we typically talk it out. No problems. But Caleb likes to say that I, I like to apologize in, creative ways.

Caleb Payne 00:36:56 Creative apologies.

Caleb Payne 00:37:00 Sometimes, like, months.

Caleb Payne 00:37:01 Later in front of, like, we haven't even discussed. Maybe like, we just stopped talking about it and then, like, several months later, we're, like, talking in front of some friends. And she says, oh, and I, I did this and he was right, or something like that.

Tyson Mutrux 00:37:13 Yeah, I think I've had some similar interactions with my wife. So I get it there, some other creative, some other things.

Tyson Mutrux 00:37:20 let me kind of go through these quickly because I don't I know we're a little bit over time, but I want to make sure I get through some of these things. So the biggest business decision, it came up at different times that you will disagree about. And I think you all were talking about the same thing. And Nicole, you had brought up the employee that you all had disagreed about. And and, Caleb, you had brought this thing up in the move. Yeah. Were we talking about the same employee that was involved because you had mentioned, I think Caleb, the employee, was she the operations manager? Is that the same employee that ended up? Yeah.

Caleb Payne 00:37:52 Yes.

Tyson Mutrux 00:37:53 And I did I did find it was interesting how it was brought up because you brought it up as, like the like that that was the big disagreement. I think, Caleb, you brought up more as because it was more of a recent thing, because it was tied to the move in some way. And I can't remember how we got to that, but that's kind of how it came up.

Tyson Mutrux 00:38:10 But I, I did find that it was interesting how connected you were to her, Nicole, but you both came to the same conclusion that it was the right decision. Can you all either one of you. I know it seems a little fresh, so you don't go into too much detail, but what do you think? The reason is that it was the right move.

Caleb Payne 00:38:27 I was it's just for the good of the firm. Bottom line. there were this. The morale of the firm, was was is greatly improved. Now, by this move, this move was necessary. And it was a move that we were almost afraid to make for a long time, because there were a lot of things that we were relying on this individual for, that neither of us had even the know how, nor the any kind of desire to know how to do any of the things that she was doing. And it it kind of just seemed like, you know, whatever. Like, we can, we can put up with, you know, a few complaints here and there about some minor things or this person's personality because it was just training all over again.

Caleb Payne 00:39:10 The amount of time that we put in it's cost benefit analysis, better for us to keep her.

Nicole Payne 00:39:16 Yeah. No, we I think this is something that has been going on for a long time that Caleb has. I think he saw it more than I did because I was really the one delegating a lot of things to her. Caleb wasn't really relying on her much at all. And I also more recently started pressing some people for information because I was being I was frustrated with the work product. I didn't feel like the the performance was there for a while, and I was a little bit fed up and started trying to pry for more information. So as soon as I started showing that open door to people, I got feedback that really blew me away. And, you know, it was just something I knew I had to do, and it was something I had to rip the bandaid off. You know, as soon as possible.

Caleb Payne 00:40:10 Yeah. You know, now that we're mentioning this, there were times in the past where I think I had expressed that we should probably go in a different direction.

Caleb Payne 00:40:18 And I knew that she didn't want to do that. And so, you know, in the last few months or years or whatever, there's been a lot of times where I, you know, maybe I wasn't necessarily covering for her, but I would see things or hear things or notice things, and I wouldn't even bring them to Nicole's attention because it's just going to be like, oh, this again. Like, you know, it's not that serious. We'll just, you know, let it ride.

Tyson Mutrux 00:40:41 Well I'm glad, I'm glad you're, you're happy with your decision. And so it's I know it's kind of tough. There's, I think anyone that's run a business for you know at least a few years you, you, you've been through this a very similar situation. So I know it's tough but the you both sounds like you took a very objective approach to it. Like this is what's best for the firm. And so I think that's which ultimately is probably best for the marriage as well, because sometimes you get that, you bring that stuff home and it can kind of can kind of get frustrating.

Caleb Payne 00:41:07 You know, if anyone.

Caleb Payne 00:41:08 I would say if anyone's list ends up listening to this, who's, you know, starting out or trying to get to the place that we're at, I would give them the recommendation, especially for like when you're a husband and wife duo as owners, you know, being able to remove emotion from any kind of business decision is really going to help. For clarity and efficiency and a lot of things. So, you know, just keep that in mind. When you're surrounding yourself and putting together your team, obviously you want. To care for these people like family. But there do have to be certain parameters that go along with that. So, you know, you don't end up being manipulated.

Tyson Mutrux 00:41:49 That's good advice. So the the decision to to work together and it sounds like Nicole, this is something that you sort of it was your idea. And I know that like Caleb you had some, some financial things that were kind of tied up that you had to get resolved first.

Tyson Mutrux 00:42:03 But other than that, did you all either of you have any reservations about potentially, you know, working together, partnering with each other?

Caleb Payne 00:42:09 No. Like it's not for me. Like I told you I had about that conversation I had and at Marco Island, and it always just kind of stuck with me. And I didn't get the guy's number and we never talked again or anything. I couldn't even tell you his name. I just always remember being like that. This guy's living the life I want to live. He told me, if you can do it, you got to do it. That's the ticket. And yeah, there was really never much hesitation for me. I just wanted that. That condo case to settle it never did.

Tyson Mutrux 00:42:39 Nicole, do you any. Did you have any reservations?

Nicole Payne 00:42:41 No, not at all. I. Caleb is extremely smart, and I have always wanted to learn from him. He not just about law, but various topics. So he's he was always someone that I went to as a resource.

Nicole Payne 00:42:56 So I thought it would be incredible if we worked together. So I was excited about it, and I knew I got to spend more time with my best friend. So I was no reservations whatsoever.

Caleb Payne 00:43:08 I snuck in, that's the name of the restaurant in Marco Island. If anybody's ever down there looking for inspiration, just go sit at the bar. Just snuck in. Wait for somebody to come up.

Caleb Payne 00:43:15 Nice.

Tyson Mutrux 00:43:16 Yeah. You really will never find a partner that is a better partner from a business standpoint than a spouse. You just won't because like they're they're they're with you like they're they're not leaving. They're not going to try to take a bunch of cases from you like they're building it together. So I do think that that's it's such a powerful strength. it's you know, I know, I know there are people that do have reservations about it, but it's if you can, you get the right mix, you know, just you have to kind of figure things out. At least me, my wife did.

Tyson Mutrux 00:43:41 We had to kind of figure things out a little bit at first. How does the dynamic work? But once you get past that part, you just you'll never find a better partner. Did you all have a similar experience? You kind of had to feel each other out a little bit first.

Caleb Payne 00:43:51 Yeah for sure. Yeah. And you know, we've we've.

Nicole Payne 00:43:53 Quickly learned our strengths and weaknesses and we just played on that.

Tyson Mutrux 00:43:58 Nicole what in this last question, what's one thing Caleb is amazing at that you'll never match being funny.

Nicole Payne 00:44:06 I can't be.

Nicole Payne 00:44:07 Funny.

Caleb Payne 00:44:08 Dancing.

Nicole Payne 00:44:10 Dancing. No, I don't know. Maybe his ability to cold plunge, meditate. Just his. Just the way that he's I mentioned before that he's rattled. I think just just remaining, remaining calm under pressure is something that I wouldn't say I'll never be able to do, but it's my blood gets boiling a lot easier than his, so I think that's definitely something that he's better at than me.

Tyson Mutrux 00:44:38 I did find that interesting because, Caleb, you did say you do get nervous and like prepping for a trial and that kind of stuff, but it sounds like the it's like a duck on water, like we're like your feet underneath are paddling, but no one else sees it because you did say you're able to compartmentalize.

Tyson Mutrux 00:44:53 But I do, Nicole. I do think he gets a lot more nervous than what you might think he does. He just don't see it. He doesn't show it to you as much.

Caleb Payne 00:45:00 Okay, that's probably true.

Nicole Payne 00:45:02 Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:45:03 Same question for you, Caleb. What's one thing Nicole is amazing at that you'll never match the negotiating.

Caleb Payne 00:45:10 And like, the business sense. Like, Nicole ran our division for a couple of years. And just like the numbers of the cases that she was settling in, the amounts that she was getting and the relationships that she had built with these adjusters on opposing counsels. And they were just like, you know, sending her Christmas gifts and settling all these cases. And no, I just couldn't believe it. I still to this day, I don't think I could, I could run suit, nearly as good as she has, or probably closing new clients to, like, selling referral sources, that kind of thing.

Tyson Mutrux 00:45:48 Love it. All right. That's all I have.

Tyson Mutrux 00:45:50 Thank you both for doing this. I know it's not the most comfortable thing to do with some of these questions, but hopefully this you're able to go back and listen to this a little bit and kind of, you know, build off of it and, you know, build a stronger firm and a better relationship.

Caleb Payne 00:46:02 Awesome. Thank you for having us on Tyson. It was a lot of fun.

Tyson Mutrux 00:46:04 You bet. Awesome. Thank you both. Appreciate it.