Maximum Lawyer

Tyson Mutrux 00:00:02 This is maximum lawyer with your host Tyson Matrix.

Tyson Mutrux 00:00:12 Map. So we're going to get into a lot of different things. You and I were chatting before and I want to get into the computer setups and all that. So I'm going to tease that because I think that that will benefit people a lot that are watching and listening. So I do want to get into that because you're setups really cool. I'll kind of show you some of my setup too, because you did some things with Alexa that I've got set up to that are really, really helpful. I'm assuming you do that with with the plugs, but we'll talk about that in a second. Yeah, but for people that don't know and you've been I mean you've been doing things for a while. You built Zilla Metrics and really built it around, you know, helping law firm owners scale. And what's really interesting is that you see a lot of law firm owners where they have plateaued, right? They and it happens so often where they hit this point where they have success early in their career.

Tyson Mutrux 00:00:59 They plateau and they really don't know where to go from there. And so what made you sort of shift your focus and helping law firm owners scale?

Matt Burke 00:01:10 It's a crazy long story that I'm sure your viewers would be like, Holy shit. We have a couple clients that that know this stuff. Handful of people do. I'm pretty open with it, but basically my kind of like foray into the law is I was a professional idiot when I was younger. So spend time in prison, High desert, San Quentin, Soledad, prison riots, all that stuff. I was a gang, banged when I was little, got caught with guns, ended up going to prison at 19 and then in and out till about 25. And then I spent about six years on the run in a fake name. Somebody hit my little brother when he was like 13. And then long story short, like I allegedly did something, they were going to give me eight years with the deal, another strike, and I was like, nah, piece left.

Matt Burke 00:01:53 And then that was a real learning experience like before. That, like life humbled me in a major way. I was stripped of everything. Everybody I knew, everybody got loved down to my name. And it took me six years to really kind of figure things out. You know, I hit rock bottom multiple times because you kind of got a reset. You know, I was living like an immigrant, pretty much. You know what I mean? Like straight up, I did not have papers. And that's where it really kind of got me into business, because I was already kind of entrepreneurial before that and then ended up just kind of like BS in my way into a marketing director job. I'd been learning non-stop on my computer. I'd already had a couple little side clients and different things like that, and these dudes gave me a shot, and it just really kind of changed my life because it was my first real opportunity to have like a good job and not being making money on the streets. And then from there, unfortunately, what happened? Kind of plugging along, living this new life.

Matt Burke 00:02:43 I got caught with a gun. So I go back, I beat the case and this is my foray into that. My first time in prison, I was a law library clerk on a level four yard in high desert. When I got popped for that gun. As soon as I got to prison, I filed a 1382. So noticing demand for trial boom cases got dropped. I had cases in a couple counties, like a high speed and some other stuff, and then I had to do my 18 months because I got three years, got out. And then from there, as soon as I got out, the guys that had hired me as a marketing director, they hired me back. They put me up for two weeks and I like they really just like dudes had my back, you know what I mean? It's Jim Stoddard and Sean Bishop, and there was some Plexi ventures, and even my old landlord and these people all had met me originally in like, a fake name, like they all put in on an apartment for me.

Matt Burke 00:03:26 And so within like 30 days, I was like two blocks from the beach and Pacific Beach had my job back. I had another coworker just randomly like, hey, I'm going to add you as an authorized user as my credit card. It's going to help your thing. And what's so crazy about it? And this is one thing I believe more. Anything else going back to feeling stuck is, you know, intention is so important and like having and developing a mindset that just really goes, okay, whatever life throws at me, I'm going to just consume it in the flames, which is my like will and determination. And so it's like as soon as I got out I'm bouncing back. And then here's my next foray into the law. So I get a call from the police department and I'm like, hello? They're like, you know, a Is Matt Burke there? So I'm already like, oh my God. You know, I'm like two months out. I got out November 17th, 2017.

Matt Burke 00:04:08 So it's January 2018 and they're telling me I need to go pick up my daughter. So my, my daughter that's nine years old now, she used to live with her mom. And that kicked off a child custody case when it first happened. Like I didn't want to fight her mom, but ended up going to jail for some stuff. And then now I'm just like, okay, I got a kid, I'm fresh out. I got all this stuff I got, you know, like she's depending on me. And so we ended up going to court. Her case got dropped and all that stuff. Long story short, she kept custody. And I ended up agreeing just because I didn't want to fight in court. I just literally wanted to see my kid on the weekends. And what happened, though, and what I failed to understand at that time, is if if you agree to be the non-custodial parent, like the best interest factors have been decided. And so she filed to move away order.

Matt Burke 00:04:52 She moved to North Carolina, which is why I ultimately ended up here. And at the time I was like, pissed. I ended up moving to Jamaica. I'd got off parole, got off. You know, I mean, got my passport was gone, you know what I mean? It's like we were talking earlier, three times on a plane. My first I drove it that little story. Second time I went skydiving. The third time I was in my 30s before I was actually on a commercial plane and so went to Jamaica. Ultimately ended up meeting my wife, who's adopting Zoe now. So I spent two years in this custody thing. I didn't have money for lawyers. This was pre-COVID. So you couldn't do like ex-parte motions, telephonic or stuff like that. You had to fly to court. And so I'd already moved back from Jamaica to go to North Carolina to be by my daughter. And then she ended up basically kidnapping her National Center of Missing children got involved San Diego child Abduction unit.

Matt Burke 00:05:38 And like long story short, I went from a non-custodial parent that was a felon fresh out of prison to full legal custody, full physical custody, no visitation, just everything. Just obviously, you know, the law. Like they have to be doing a lot of bad stuff for the courts to go that way. You know what I'm saying? And then I ended up doing the immigration stuff for my wife and myself too. And so, like in another life, I would 100% be a lawyer. My mom used to call me like Esquire when I was younger because I would always argue and shit. But yeah, I don't think you expected that kind of. How did you get into this thing?

Tyson Mutrux 00:06:11 So there was there is a lot wrapped up in that. And I think that I do think it's really this is great. I think hearing that backstory is really important for listeners and here's why. What's interesting to me is that whenever I was in undergrad, I was learning about marketing, and it was all about the customer.

Tyson Mutrux 00:06:28 Everything was about the customer. When I became an attorney, it's everything's about the attorney ever. Lots of chess beating, lots of chess beating. And I find that really interesting. And I think that that is where a lot of law firm owners screw up as they focus on the attorney and not on what they can do for the potential client. So I wonder, so you had criminal matters that you dealt with both. You had some good results and some I don't know if they were bad results, but you had results where you actually ended up in prison, right? You had some famous law issues where you had initially bad result and then good result. You've had immigration, which you did. That's on your own, which is awesome. I think the immigration attorneys would like to hear that. But I do wonder what you've learned from the clients perspective that's helped you in the marketing part of it.

Matt Burke 00:07:19 In terms of like my from the like putting myself in the attorneys shoes.

Tyson Mutrux 00:07:23 Yeah. So what could law firm owners be doing differently to help when it comes to, you know, driving more cases?

Matt Burke 00:07:30 Yeah, I think just an absolute obsession of the client journey and client experience and just literally mapping out every single point of interaction with your firm from, okay, they're going to get to your website.

Matt Burke 00:07:41 Okay. What are they going to do? They're either going to call text or use a chat. Right. And so calls or currencies. So you know but not everybody's going to call. So if you have them filling out a form, it's better. Instead of just putting like name, email, phone number, a message, what you want to do is have it more like a quiz funnel because it's going to one. It's going to pre-qualify the leads better and they can just literally use their thumb like, hey, what are you contacting us about? Or for personal injury, you know, was it your fault, blah blah blah, right? You just have these series of quiz questions to where after you collect their contact details, they're just using their thumb and then redirect them to a page that ideally has a video of you looking directly into the camera and just letting them know what's next, and then even personalizing the thank you page. Because when you fill out a form, you can carry over those variables to a thank you page and put like, you know, Tyson, I'm sorry you're going through this boom, a video and then walk them through the next step.

Matt Burke 00:08:30 You even have an embedded calendar there. And then start looking at, okay, for every kind of pipeline stage that we have, like, you know, most people are using a CRM. So it's like new leads. We're making contact, consult scheduled, whatever, build out the communications you need there. So look at like what reviews do you have, what assets do you have, what information and just essentially just try to anticipate someone's needs. Right. Because people are going to ask you questions. You're going to run into issues, document it, create a process, train people on it and just keep testing it every time. So I think that's probably the single best way to to really like increase that, because referrals are kind of like the lifeblood of everybody's business. Right? You do good work like it compounds and it's going to do great. So if you have that system in there, when you start doing SEO and Google ads, local service ads or whatever else you're doing to generate leads, you're putting them into a system that's going to basically create money.

Matt Burke 00:09:22 And a lot of times probably actually the easiest thing to implement, because that is a lot of moving parts. It's just answer the phone like money's calling. I see, like we do intake audits and stuff like that on clients. And I've just saw some things where you're just like, man, like you're literally paying for Google ads and answering the call like this. And so if there's like one single thing that anybody can do is just answer the phone like money's calling, show empathy and use it to be like, for example, if somebody's calling, it's like, hey, you know, thank you for calling so-and-so. Law firm, this is Matt speaking. Who do I have the pleasure of speaking with? Oh, why are you calling today? Like, find out if they have kids. What is their job like? Small talk with them, because that stuff is going to be what's going to help you close them. Because a lot of times I also find that, for example, family law and criminal defense does this all the time is they'll pitch somebody, which is essentially like doing a proposal on the phone, be like, oh, you got a DUI charge this much, right? And so they're not even visually seeing the person.

Matt Burke 00:10:18 There's no kind of body cuz there's there's no way that you can kind of like build rapport or anything like that. So it becomes where you're just you commoditized yourself because all you're doing is speaking a price over the phone. You don't know if they're like, you know, dealing with their kids in the background or, you know, surfing the internet or not even engaged with what you're saying. And then they light up when they hear the price and then you've already lost. And so, like making sure people get on video, if you're going to do a consult, making sure they turn on their camera so you know that you got their attention. I think just that those two things is going to help people increase their conversions.

Tyson Mutrux 00:10:51 You know, we had a we had a CARES team meeting on Monday I think is what it was. It was the whole point of it was just it was kind of like getting back to roots, sort of a meeting, you know, it's just kind of like a refresher, like, what's the purpose of our care team? And that's that's our intake team.

Tyson Mutrux 00:11:06 And they do they they're really a really kind of a customer service team because there's a customer service part of it where they stay with the client from the customer service standpoint, from the lead all the way till the case is closed. That's that's what we call the CARES team. But we talked about how how important it is to build that trust at the very beginning and really create that connection someway. And we really do focus on that connection. It's really, really important whether you do do it over the phone or via video or in person doing that, it's really, really important to the point where we we'll even put and this was something that was created organically by the teams where they started to put notes inside of the actual client contact note, where it would say something specific about them, for example. You know, it's the first day of school for such and such a kid. They're going to such and such school. They'll put like little details like that so that the next time we would talk to them, whoever talked to them say, oh, how did the first day of school go? It looks like they're going to such and such schools.

Tyson Mutrux 00:12:05 So you put those little details. But my question is going to be it's somewhat related to that. But I do wonder, because you remind me a lot of some of the guys I grew up with where three of the guys I was very close with, two of them were neighbors. They went to prison, so it wasn't like I was hanging out with some of the sorry guys. Yeah, some of the best, but but I here's what I'll tell you. They were scrappy and they could figure it out. And they were able to really if they had an issue, they could figure it out. And that's what I think is really awesome. And I wonder, I do wonder how much of how you've been able to build your business and grow the way you have and overcome what you've overcome has to do with your upbringing and some of the things that you've gone through over your life, I think.

Matt Burke 00:12:51 So we grew up really poor, you know, my mom's a great mom. Like, you know, I love her to death.

Matt Burke 00:12:56 But like, it was it was kind of rough, you know, kind of coming up and stuff like that. And my dad was into the biker scene and stuff like that. And then, you know, he passed away. We had like a family friend that got murdered. So we had had just like different things going on back then. I think if anything had probably younger, I just kind of put a chip on my shoulder and made me more just like, hey, I'm going to come out here and get it, because I was really pretty buttoned down as like a minor. And then, you know, because I kind of felt, well, a responsibility for my mom and a responsibility for my younger siblings because I was the oldest one. But once I turned 18 and I was in and out of foster homes and stuff like that a little bit, but once I turned 18, I just started getting stupid. And so by 19 I was on a level four yard. And that's really what started shaping things.

Matt Burke 00:13:37 So I don't know, I'm sure. I mean, you know what a level four yard is compared to a level one. So it was a 180 design level for in high desert. So this is like the shoe kick out yard for Pelican Bay. So everybody that is doing life or their like you know coming off not being validated. And so the lowest I'd ever been was a level three. But everywhere you went especially because it's like everything in there is no hands policy. Like you're not allowed to fight. Like if you're going to fight, you have to stab someone, you have to slice someone. And so it's like a situation where you put all these people that are like basically, you know, killers, drug addicts, like doing all kinds of crap on the street. But there's like this respect and like, hostilities don't really happen like that. And when they do, like, you know, it's generally maybe a removal where somebody is removing their own. But that really it's very interesting because when I got friends in the military and stuff like that, because there is a kiosk like there's target monitors, there's all this stuff that you go in there where you have to walk out on the yard and go, okay, how many of this group and this group and this group is out here right now? Where are the targets? You know, how many people in the yard, how many cops are in the yard? And so you get used to having awareness.

Matt Burke 00:14:40 And that's one of the things that I really learned in there that I felt is kind of shaped a lot of things and disciplined, too, because like drug use and different things like that were like really looked down upon. And so like, you just could not be in that car and do that kind of stuff. And so it was mandatory workouts, mandatory education, and it was just like, I love the structure because, you know, when I first got like caught with guns when I was 18, I just got went to jail, I got a suspended sentence, but I literally went took the Asvab, applied for the Army. I was waiting one year, passed for my felony conviction to to do the waiver. I was like, ship me to Iraq, you know what I mean? You ain't going to take my guns. I'll just go there. But unfortunately, I ended up catching another case. And that's what got me my suspended sentence. But that just taught me a lot about discipline.

Matt Burke 00:15:21 And then I started, you know, when I, when I went on the run, you know, because I felt it at some point, you know, when I got out and I was kind of doing my thing, kind of felt like King dangling to it to an extent. Like I'm out there, you know, I didn't have a job, but I had my I just was living good. And when I left, like, after like six months in San Diego, I ran out of money. I was flat broke. I had nothing like I was literally went from, okay, what am I going to do to like, haven't you ever walk out of a grocery store and somebody, like trying to sign you up for something? Literally.

Tyson Mutrux 00:15:49 Yeah, absolutely.

Matt Burke 00:15:50 Yeah. Was doing that, was doing like anything I could to just get work and get money until I ended up getting the skills to kind of get that job. But stoicism really kind of changed my mindset because I feel like a lot of people that is either grew up, maybe hood or grew up in just different situations.

Matt Burke 00:16:07 They blame the cops, they blame this, they blame the system, they blame society. But you know, the moment I started adapting the the reality that everything is my fault, literally, because everything has happened from either an action I've taken or didn't take and, you know, I'm gonna live with it. And so that to me, like once I once I accepted that, I was like, all right, cool. Now I can change it all, you know what I mean? And it just got more where you don't kind of take things personal, like, we're all in this system. And even if the system isn't fair at times, you know that the system isn't fair. So you're playing a game that you understand the rules, whether they're in your favor or not, you know? But business, to me is just one of those things that it just absolutely changed my life. You know what I mean? And then, like, working with with attorneys specifically, I just, you know, just kind of my background and stuff like that.

Matt Burke 00:16:51 I just feel like a lot of just a connection there. You know, I would 100% be a lawyer in another life.

Tyson Mutrux 00:16:55 Yeah. I wonder how much you learned about reading people during some of those tough, tough times where whether it's, you know, walking into the yard and trying to figure out who are the who are the allies, who are the enemies, whether it's, you know, you are, you know, people are walking out of the grocery store and you're trying to, you know, get somebody to sign up or something. What have you learned about, you know, how to how to read people over the years?

Matt Burke 00:17:16 I don't know, probably nothing nothing spectacular. I mean, to me, it's just like, pay attention to people's actions, not what they say. Right. Because people are going to say things and all the time. Right. People are going to either, you know, there's people that lie, there's people that whatever. And so if you watch somebody's actions long enough, they're going to tell you who they really are.

Matt Burke 00:17:34 And then when they do that, believe them, you know what I mean? I think that's, like, the best thing to do. I just look at how people get down. You know how to. How do people treat their spouse? How do people treat their friends? How do people treat their kids? And if you observe how somebody acts like that, then you're going to kind of know. And then from there it's like, as I've gotten older, I just, you know, I keep a small circle. You know, you got to really just stay focused on people that have the same kind of, you know, morals, you know, values and stuff like that.

Tyson Mutrux 00:18:01 You know, I wonder, what is it like? So you went from very modest upbringing to you're living a different life right now, right? You're you're raising your, your kids soon to be four kids in a different world than you are. So what is that like basically living? You know, you go from one life to another life that it's completely different.

Tyson Mutrux 00:18:20 That is way better. You've got your kids in a, you know, much better shape than whenever you were. You were younger, even though it sounds like you were, you know, you were a good kid. You just kind of went off the rails a little bit after, you know, we're 18, but.

Matt Burke 00:18:31 Yeah, here and there.

Tyson Mutrux 00:18:33 Yeah, but but what is it, what is that like? You know, living those two different types of lives.

Matt Burke 00:18:37 I love it. So, like, I mean, in the 90s in California, we lived in this spot called Hog's Back right outside of Red bluff, California, where we literally hand pumped our water and shit in an outhouse. Wow. And it's like, you hear that? And you're like, Holy shit. You know, so my first time going to a third world country, I was like, this is it like, like straight up and but I really appreciate it. Then I, you know, we lived for like four years on, like basically a marijuana farm in Paynes Creek.

Matt Burke 00:19:01 If you Google the population of that, it says like 32. It used to say 48. Like there's just nobody out there. So I've lived in like bum fucked Egypt and I've lived in the city. And so I just, you know, I've lived in other countries. And so it's just this I'm just kind of blessed. I feel like to have been exposed to that, because one of the things I worry about my with my kids is like, you know, I mean, you know, I got rental properties, we got a nice house, we got a pool. Like, I take them traveling. They've been to, you know, Mexico, Bahamas, Jamaica, like they've been everywhere all the time. And I feel like you got to try to figure out how to instill struggle within your children because it's like you want them to have a healthy view of like, hey dude, this the real world requires a lot of sacrifice and hard work and effort. You know what I mean? Plain and simple.

Matt Burke 00:19:42 So, you know, does that make sense?

Tyson Mutrux 00:19:44 Yeah, well, I do, because my my wife and I have that same struggle where we came up. We came from, you know, modest upbringings. And we are we are constantly trying to make sure that our kids are grounded and that they are, you know, we remind them constantly how different things are from our lives to their lives and, and how and really how grateful they should be. And so that's why we do focus a lot on, you know, on the gratitude and all that. So I wonder how you do that. How do you make sure that your kids stay grounded and that they're they don't become, you know, sort of, you know, the typical, you know, you know, spoiled brat that you maybe see on TV.

Matt Burke 00:20:20 So me and my wife were, were pretty strict with our kids. But essentially, you know, we've all we've always educated them. So like both Matt, who's three right now, he can break down assets and liabilities.

Matt Burke 00:20:32 Abilities. Zoe's been able to do that since she was four, but back then, it's like when we were reading that, you know, I read the book, so things I want to read, I try to stack my habits with her. So like, hey, let's read this. And she might like, yeah, like, now you're going to read it. You know what I mean? Straight up. I'm bigger than you. You have to. And so, like, well.

Tyson Mutrux 00:20:47 That's a hell of a parenting hack, I'll tell you that. That's that's a that's a nice little parenting hack.

Matt Burke 00:20:51 It's nice man, because we get to spend some time together, and then it's like my son, he sees that too. And so he'll like, it's very hard to get anything done with him, so he'll just totally kind of screw up story time because, you know, he's got to zone out on on a business book or something. Like we were reading a scaling with systems or I forgot the name of the book, like scaling with systems.

Matt Burke 00:21:10 We were just reading that the other night, but that's one thing. And then even when they're out of school, like we have a subscription to Education Comm. So I make sure she's like constantly doing work and doing exercise and stuff like that. You know, just making sure that their brain don't go soft. Right? Because if you stay out for the whole summer, boom, you're done. And then another thing is like, I'm not super religious, but my wife is. And so we go to church. On Sunday we've got gotten involved in that. And the kids go. And I just put my daughter into like a Christian school and stuff like that, because I just want to have them grounded with values. But the thing I teach, I'm not so much on little map, but my daughter is, it's more so like, you can make easy decisions. Or is it what's the what's the phrase? It's like easy decisions, hard life or you know, or no hard choices. Easy life.

Matt Burke 00:21:55 Easy choices, hard life. And that's why I try to explain to them, like when I see, you know, for example, if I see like a grown ass, able bodied man on the, on the, on the road, like just sitting there bumming money with shoes and ain't dirty, which I see all the time. I'm just like, that's a person right there that just made bad decisions. They made bad choices. You feel me? And so it's like you're going to have to experience like pain. You're going to have to experience discomfort regardless whether you're working hard to solve something or whether you're just being a victim of life. And so it's like you get the choice. You get to feel pain no matter what. But what would you rather do? You know what I'm saying? Like. And just try to explain that to him. Or sometimes take him to spots where they might see where it's just different. Be like, this is normal for more people than it's not, you know what I'm saying? So like, and we can we're all one step away from that.

Matt Burke 00:22:44 You never know. You know what I'm saying? Life can change very quickly.

Tyson Mutrux 00:22:46 100%. Very, very quickly. No. Yeah, especially I mean, I do personal injury. So it's something that we're like people's lives are changed in an instant. You know, and things, things happen so quickly or you're talking about, you know, you know, could be crime. Could you name it. It could be a lot of different things. But I do want to shift gears. I want to shift gears when it comes to.

Matt Burke 00:23:05 I'm curious though, before we leave that topic, like what's what's your strategy with your kids?

Tyson Mutrux 00:23:09 It's to me, it's a lot of making things very consistent, process driven. You have an, you know, surprising, you know, people hearing that for me is that what kids really, really need in my opinion, is stability. Right. You have you have these routines and rituals. And so there are certain rituals and routines that we do on a regular basis.

Tyson Mutrux 00:23:28 One of them is I talk about this a lot, but I think it's a really, really important thing is every single day at dinner, we talk about the funniest thing except for date night. So I've got date night with my wife. So we're and we also that's a big part of it too is where my wife, my wife and I, her name is Amy. Like Amy and I would never go to date and I would we'd demonstrate to them, that's our date night, that's our time to spend with each other. And we kind of we try to show that love that we have for each other in front of them. So we try to demonstrate that to them so they can see that how important that is. But doing the funniest thing at dinner every night. So having really building these routines and then demonstrating it to them as well. So the thing about kids is that they don't it's not about really what you say to them because and we I do the same thing where I try to tell them things too, but that's not really what matters is what you're actually doing that matters.

Tyson Mutrux 00:24:15 They watch you, they watch. They're always watching you. They see what you're doing, and they're just going to imitate what you do. And that's why I think it's so important. I think it's really cool the things that you're doing, and that's what we like to do the same thing with traveling and stuff too, with the kids where we and we do have our sort of adults only trips that we take, but we also have the ones where it's.

Matt Burke 00:24:34 Got you need those?

Tyson Mutrux 00:24:36 Yeah, absolutely. Really, really important. But then we also do have the ones where we take the kids. And so to me it's a lot of it's about routine and consistency and demonstrating to them the things they should and shouldn't do. And then I think I guess the other other main thing is showing how their actions can affect other people. That one's really important. And the way we I'll usually do that is I'll say something like, you know, how do you think that makes such and such feel, even if it's not something that our kids did? You know, maybe another kid had done something, you know.

Tyson Mutrux 00:25:05 Well, how do you think that they felt in that situation and having them sort of understand that part of it and exercising empathy is really, really important.

Matt Burke 00:25:13 What you said right there too is like, what do you think? I think asking your kids that especially like, like my three year old, you know, with him, he's not the type where you're going to just be able to like, I had to send him to his room because he was hitting right. Stewart comes back with boxing gloves on. I was like, I can't even be mad at this guy. But it's like with him, you know, getting aggressive or, you know, doing all that with him just don't work. And so I've always found like, hey, kneel down, get eye level and just be like, what's up man? Let's, let's and just start asking questions and straight up. And so like when it's like that, they'll know, like kids will be. Yes, dad. You know, straight up, you know the little mat like he'll be he's three.

Matt Burke 00:25:49 He's the one that'll, you know, if Zoe or Maya doesn't say it, they'll be like, you didn't say yes, dad. I'm just, like, telling on each other and stuff. But, yeah, I think the rituals are super critical. So you guys do like rituals with other family because you said you moved closer to family now, so, like holidays, stuff like that.

Tyson Mutrux 00:26:06 Yeah we did. We moved closer to family. Yeah. So one of them is the a really big one. This maybe seems simple and a lot of people might do this, but we always read The Night Before Christmas and then The Grinch Stole Christmas. We read that every single year. So I read The Night Before Christmas. My wife reads The Grinch. And so the entire family, All the little kids from the family. From not just our family, but all the families. They'll sit in the living room and and we'll we'll read to them. And so, yeah, there's little things like that throughout the year, you know, when we'll have like a Halloween, we'll have in our neighborhoods really big about, you know, trick or treating.

Tyson Mutrux 00:26:39 We have, I mean, hundreds of people. It's massive. And so, you know, we have chili, you know, over at our house and, you know, we have people over and usually the grandparents are the ones whenever we're taking the kids out there, they're handing out candy. But the what they let our kids enjoy the most is actually coming back to give out candy. So they like to we go out, we'll take we'll get a few streets and then we'll come right back. I did notice this last year. Our oldest, he wanted to go back out. So I'm not not super surprised. He's you know 14. And so he's wanting to go out and you know get some more candy.

Matt Burke 00:27:08 But without dad he's like I want to go run run around with my friends.

Tyson Mutrux 00:27:12 Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Went out with his buddies. Yeah, that's for sure. But I so let's pivot. And I want to talk about whenever you're looking at a business. Right. And you see a law firm.

Tyson Mutrux 00:27:23 And what patterns do you typically see in the ones that are growing steadily versus maybe the ones that get stuck?

Matt Burke 00:27:30 So the ones that are growing steadily, they're just they're constantly focused on increasing leads, but they're also obsessed with intake. Because if you know, if it's just such a critical piece, like it is the point in which, like, that's where the money's made. And so people that fall flat on that is, is where I see pretty much the most detriment. And then as they're growing, the ones that really nail it is they got their numbers in order. Like they can tell you what their acquisition costs are. They can tell you what their cost per lead is like. They're using call rail, they're tracking their leads. But the thing where I see most people screw up and even like 1 to 4 million, like I see across different revenue levels all the time, is somebody might have a CRM, but it's set up improperly or it's not being used by staff, and it's often a combination of both where they basically they're paying for CRM.

Matt Burke 00:28:15 Not all the staff uses it the same way. So you'll go in there and you'll see like tasks that are super late That were generated or whatever, and nobody did anything with. Or you'll see stuff where you have like a gazillion leads and a pipeline that it's like, when do you close lost these things? Like, how are you disposition of these leads? And so nobody knows. And then what happens also is like, yeah, they're using Callrail, but it doesn't pass that data into their CRM all the way because a lot of these like legal tech, like tools, like their integrations don't necessarily work ideally. Like, you know, like call rail and law. Mattox, for example, that integration leaves something to be desired because it doesn't pull in the information the correct way because of how their forms work. But once you can solve that, you know exactly what's working and what's not, plain and simple. So you can sit there and go, okay, like here's how much we put in the Lsat, here's how much we put in the Google ads, which ones making us more money.

Matt Burke 00:29:05 And if you're doing that every month, you're going to know exactly what to do. And ideally, if you do that every week now, you can actually do something about it, right? And I think the data part and as a business grows, it's like, well, what are the issues you deal with? Well, that your processes haven't caught up to where you're at, because you may be grew fast and you didn't have the damn process. Or then maybe you hired quickly, maybe badly. And then now you have people where you don't have your processes buttoned up or documented. Now you've had to hire a bunch of people. You don't have time and you don't have processes. So you're not training these people well. And so then that's where I see, like the cluster of issues that kind of stalls firms out like that million, 2 million mark because they don't know like they don't have visibility into what staff is doing. They don't necessarily have like a framework for accountability. And then their data is kind of all over the place.

Matt Burke 00:29:55 So it's like, yeah, they can probably get to it, but it's like a manual true up where they might have to pull the leads from the CRM, pull the data from Callrail, try to match it up, and because it takes a little bit, nobody ends up doing it. You don't have the information you need to know what's working or not.

Tyson Mutrux 00:30:10 Yeah. And so it's funny, you, you you mentioned all that because one of the things I wanted to ask you about is because you've said before that a lot of firms, they'll hit that ceiling at 7 million or at seven figures. So at a million or less, they'll kind of hit that ceiling and they won't be able to go any further. And what do you think is if you're gonna point to one thing, right. If because there might be multiple things, you know, it could be, you know, marketing, it could be the operations, it could be a leadership problem. I mean, it could be a lot of different things.

Tyson Mutrux 00:30:35 It could be processes. But what do you think is that the number one issue. And it may not be the same issue for everybody. Like what's the the main issue that causes that ceiling to be in place.

Matt Burke 00:30:44 A business is going to grow up to its most like current restraint right. Or constraint I should say. And so oftentimes it's going to be whoever started the business. They've brought it to that level and they just don't know what to do. Right. And then now it's like, you know, since you're a pilot, it's like changing an engine on a plane. You're flying, right? It's like you've got all these moving parts. You don't have the time, you don't have all that stuff. And so I think one of the things that can help solve that is you get you need a real operator, like you just really need to have like a solid solid number two that can legit take stuff off your plate so you know and have it like a divide and conquer type mentality, you know, because yeah, you know, you can dump more in the adds.

Matt Burke 00:31:24 You can dump more on this, you can dump more into that. But there's so many moving parts in the business that it's like you got to get the foundational elements in place, you know? And I think the data is probably the the thing to start with. And oftentimes I see that people will get like, let's say a fractional something or, or something like that or a marketing specialist. Right. And I see this a lot actually, in the legal space where firms grow and they're humming along. Maybe they're working with agencies and stuff like that, and then they get a marketing person that literally doesn't have the expertise of somebody that can run Google ads or do SEO, or build a website or any of this stuff. And I know why they did it. They're like, I don't understand marketing or I don't have time to do it. I don't want to deal with this shit, so I'm going to hire someone else to do it. And then what happens is they just keep like spreading their marketing dollars around.

Matt Burke 00:32:07 They're not concentrating their forces. And at the end of the day, it's like you kind of got to bite the bullet and understand the stuff. And the easiest way to understand it is just to track the KPIs so you know what's working or what's not. Then it's not an emotional decision, but it's also constructive at that point because whoever you're working with, you go, okay, I need this many consults per week to make sure it's good. And that's probably the single best metric to track, regardless of what practice area you're in. Like, if you're looking at your consults per week, that's generally going to tell you, you know, what your revenue is going to be or how how you should close out each month. Because it's like if you're going to track anything weekly, I would 100% track that on a scorecard. Have people responsible for it set up, you know, a weekly team meeting where you have a specific agenda and then you go through everything. So everybody's on the same page. You always have next steps on how to solve whatever problem you're dealing with.

Tyson Mutrux 00:32:55 Yeah, I think that that's definitely a it's obviously a good one. The I started grin when you were talking about fractional stuff because I think that there there are some really good fractional executives, but there's also some people out there that don't know what they're doing. And they so people do, they'll tend to, you know, hire people because they they think that that's the next step because it probably is the is a next step, but they end up higher in the wrong person. And you know that fractional person doesn't do anything and they're not tapped into the firm enough to really understand, you know, the culture or anything else. And I think that's kind of interesting for us. Our, the our key number, the one that we look at is our average fee. It can tell me a lot of different things. It can tell me all right maybe. And it always takes some diagnosing. But if the number starts to slip all right maybe it's we're not signing the right cases. Maybe we're doing something during the process of the case that, you know, it's affecting the case or if it's going up, it's the same thing.

Tyson Mutrux 00:33:46 So it allows us to dialing dial in a lot of different things. So having those numbers is absolutely important. I 100% agree with you. I think that that's that's extremely crucial.

Matt Burke 00:33:56 One problem that I think that this is probably relevant for anybody and everybody, but because I've done this myself, because I think at some point when you really need to start hiring and getting people in there so you can get bandwidth, you know, a lot of times when you're in that phase, like you're busy, you just literally want help, right? And the problem with I think a lot of people do this. I've done it myself. I've seen it done a lot. Is like hiring is a volume knob. It's not a light switch like you don't. Just like you can't abdicate your responsibility. Be like, okay, cool, I'm hiring you a paid I'm fucking piece. Like, I'm gonna go do this. Like, you literally got more work in front of you at that point, especially if you don't have the processes.

Matt Burke 00:34:30 But you have to be training anyway. And so I feel like that's where people kind of drop the ball quite a bit, and then they end up getting frustrated. And, you know, it's like going back to kind of the stoic route. It's like you should be blaming yourself because if you had the right systems and you had the right structure and you approached the training the right way and they had you had zero doubt that they know what to do, then you know, you can you can sit there and, you know, pass something off and know that it's not going to just bounce right back to you, you know.

Tyson Mutrux 00:34:57 Yeah. You mentioned operators earlier and I so I want to talk about that because I my opinion has evolved over the years where I used to. And I was always kind of struggling with this where because I still practice law, but I also run the firm. Right? I mean, I'm really running to businesses. I've got one where we're running Maximum Lawyer with Beck, and then I've got the law firm, too.

Tyson Mutrux 00:35:18 And it is kind of an interesting thing where I used to think you must have a CEO type that's that's more of the operator. So the practice manager, whatever you want to call them. And then you have the person that that runs sort of the legal operations side. The way I've evolved to it, I want to get your thoughts on this. Is that more of a if you look at someone like Steve Jobs and I'm going to use him because he's he's a great example of this. It's not like Steve Jobs was the CEO and head. He knew a lot about iPhones. It's not like he didn't know about iPhones. He knew he was very integral in the design of them and in which what they should have in them, what they shouldn't have in them, what the future should be all that. Right. And I've sort of come to the shifted more to the yeah, you do need to have someone that is, you know, the practice manager type, but they also really need to be tapped into the operations of the firm, whether that's the legal operations or the non-legal operations, because they've got to understand the way the firm works.

Tyson Mutrux 00:36:15 And I wonder what your thoughts are on that.

Matt Burke 00:36:17 So what you're saying the CEO has to have that overlapping operator I do.

Tyson Mutrux 00:36:22 Yeah. I've sort of come to that conclusion where you still have to be tied into practicing law in some capacity. It doesn't mean you've got to be taking depot's every day and all that. But I do think you need to be tapped in in some capacity. So I wonder because I don't think that that's a popular opinion these days.

Matt Burke 00:36:36 I mean, it's just like with anything else, right? Like marketing, if you're running a marketing company and you're not really, like, tuned in to what's happening in the, in the, in the, you know, across Google and anything else. Right? Then it's like you're operating with a blind spot. You know what I'm saying? So it's like, yeah, I 100% agree. Because, you know, part of the problem is depending upon what your team structure is, you need to know how it needs to be done in order to delegate it or hire it or whatever effectively.

Matt Burke 00:37:00 Because if you don't have, you know, the knowledge of how it works or it's not documented anywhere, how could you expect anybody to do it right? It's never going to be done right. It's going to be done different every single time. And so I think one of the perfect kind of like, you know, if you can get in this scenario because it's like as the CEO of founder, you know, lead attorney, like you want to be casting a vision, right? Like you want to be like, hey, here's where we are. This is where we're going. This is what we want this experience to be. This is what we want people to feel when they come into this firm and stuff like that. And so it's hard to implement all those ideas that you have. And so that's where having that number two could be perfect, because then you can kind of be in your zone of genius. You can ideate, you can read, you can study all these things and go, okay, we can implement this, we can implement this.

Matt Burke 00:37:43 And these might be bite sized little thing like a personalized thank you page with a video on it, or, you know, the ability to automatically book or, you know, a spreadsheet that tracks your KPIs each week. And then you have your team update. But if you just implement these a little bit of time, like create, like I did this before, I actually had a milestone tracker when I got out where it's like, got my license, got my apartment, got my thing, and it gave me just this kind of like feeling of momentum where, hey, I need to tack things on here. And obviously like, you know, I was starting from scratch there. So it was pretty, pretty low. But over time, it's like if you keep your mind on what's my next milestone? What's my next milestone? To be plotting those dates and looking at them and reviewing them? One, you can kind of appreciate where you came from, right? Because you should be playing the game against yourself.

Matt Burke 00:38:27 We all got competitors, but at the end of the day, it's like all you got to do is be better than you were before, and then you're just naturally going to get what you want in life, generally speaking. You know.

Tyson Mutrux 00:38:37 Funny you say that because I've wondered how that connects the how you were able to connect the dots to to Zillow metrics. Like what? Because it was like you had a you had a past that doesn't really align with that. But then so you but you've built this amazing platform that allows you to track all these things. And now it makes complete sense where you have these benchmarks. You start with these benchmarks to kind of put your life back together. And now you've built this thing that helps law firm owners do the same thing. I think that's really interesting. Are there other breadcrumbs that can help you tie those two together? But because like that does help me connect the dots quite a bit because I did wonder. But that makes a lot of sense. So what else led you to Zillow metrics?

Matt Burke 00:39:18 So I mean, I got it blasted on my freaking arm.

Matt Burke 00:39:21 So it was like, you know, like that that used to be like a thing from the past. But the what it came from is when I was working with that other company I'd worked, I ended up working like we worked with everybody, but I ended up working with a couple lawyers and they were just really cool, you know, and a lot of lawyers. What I've noticed, like a lot of them got stories to 100%, you know what I mean? 100%. They're just smarter. Like they get away with things. And so it's like you sit there and I'm like, okay, like these are lawyers are not what people like. The stereotypical lawyer is not how lawyers really are. I don't know, you know what I'm saying? Like that stereotype came from somewhere, but I just I literally don't see that when I, when I actually talk to lawyers. So it's it's kind of crazy that that came from. But yeah, it's I started I worked with a couple of them, and then after that I was like, okay, this makes perfect sense because the problem when I would just kind of do marketing for anybody that would pay the invoice, so to speak, right? You end up working on things that you have you do not give a shit about.

Matt Burke 00:40:17 Like, I had a pool mosaics client and then I had like a raised floor client, and I had all these random things where I can tell you a bunch about raised flooring and cable management. I could tell you a lot about pool mosaics, but it's like, I don't care, you know what I mean? Versus the law. I feel like one, you're 100% empowered by knowing it, and it saved my ass a few times. You know what I mean? It got my daughter, you know what I mean? And that's something like her life could have been. I don't know what would have happened, you know what I'm saying? Because it's like her, you know, mom literally walked out on her. She hasn't even seen her for five years. And so it's like, if I didn't really dig in and start understanding the law, like so many people's lives would be different right now. I've been able to retire my mom doing this, so it's just like, it's just empowering to know.

Matt Burke 00:41:00 And then, you know, we work with a lot of estate planning clients and stuff like that. So just learning how to build a legacy and just seeing what's possible if just literally like my my whole goal is to kind of just change my family tree and just be kind of like the source of, you know, people's lives changing and being better for generations after I'm gone, specifically, like with my kids and family and stuff like that, and try to just instill into them like, dude, don't make the mistakes I did, but it's really not like all the same energy you can pour into something negative. You can pour it into something positive and it can never get taken away from you. It just compounds, you know?

Tyson Mutrux 00:41:33 I love that message. I wonder if you have an opinion more from like the client perspective as to what makes a good attorney, what makes a bad attorney?

Matt Burke 00:41:42 I think what makes a bad attorney is if if you don't care about the client experience, like they're going to feel it, like you're going to just know.

Matt Burke 00:41:50 And so every time you send an invoice, every time you, you know, send the retainer thing, they're going to be like this fucker. Like they're gonna they're going to hate you. You know what I mean? Like straight up versus like if, if they understand the what they're going to go through, and you walk them through everything and you make sure that the interactions are, you know, as good as they can be because somebody's coming to a law firm like you gently. You're not calling a lawyer because you're having a good time, right? So it's like something bad's generally happened in your life. And so it's like you got to just have that kind of level of empathy for it and know that, yeah, there's a business to law and yes, there's these things you got to do in business. And it's very easy for someone to just think of it. It's just another case. It's just another client. It's just another whatever. But this is a person that's going through probably the worst thing they've ever gone through in their life.

Matt Burke 00:42:39 And so if you dismiss that or don't pay attention to it, like you're going to see it probably in bad reviews or people not referring you or things like that. So it's like just having empathy, I think, and putting yourself in their shoes, or at least attempting to, which can be hard for with some people, you know, obviously, you know, there's crazy people that call lawyers. So So I also know that, you know, I see form submissions and different things like that where I'm like, Good God, you know, but.

Tyson Mutrux 00:43:07 That is for sure.

Matt Burke 00:43:09 It is what it is.

Tyson Mutrux 00:43:10 They usually come in around two, three, 4 a.m. in the morning, and they're very, very long submissions. And they've talked to 20 attorneys. Those are the ones that that you walk away with, walk away from. But so you have the three pillars of of law firm. So you have your law firm growth framework. But there's three pillars of that. Can you walk through the the three pillars? I know it's a hell of a Segway, but I did want to ask you about that.

Matt Burke 00:43:36 I mean, it's literally just a lead gen intake data, meaning like basically you got to get leads in order for you to have at bats. Like you're going to have to talk to people to make money. And then when it comes to intake, like, you have to answer the phone like money's calling, you have to continually secret shop your firm. You should be secret shopping your competitors to and understand kind of what they're doing and what's working. But that especially if you have an intake team if you're not checking the calls. I had one client that we used call rail for everybody, and we're running ads and a bunch of calls were going to voicemail. I'm like, what the hell? And so, you know, we kind of looked at it and we started listening to the thing. What we found out is his remote. He had a remote, like receptionist. She was voicemail everybody to a voicemail that just said, text me.

Tyson Mutrux 00:44:22 No.

Matt Burke 00:44:23 Oh, yeah. And she obviously got fired.

Matt Burke 00:44:25 But it's just like, you know, that's probably the worst case of something I've seen. But even when, you know, prior to Zillow metrics, I was doing lead gen for like a franchise, like a preschool franchise. And the sales person that they had trying to sign up, you know, potential franchisees was literally pitching other franchise opportunities on their dime. You know, he didn't know that we had call rail and stuff like that. So, you know, if you're not spot checking things, guaranteed you have problems, just guarantee it, you know, and not all the time it's going to be somebody out to just screw you over. It just might mean they need more training. You know, like, you got to keep repeating things enough. But yeah, that that one's a killer one.

Tyson Mutrux 00:45:04 Yeah. And so I know that you. So you recommend when it comes to like dashboards. So you recommend I think intake CRM and KPI dashboards. And if I misstating that let me know. But I think a lot of people hear that and it sounds great.

Tyson Mutrux 00:45:17 And like we have our own dashboards and that we're really happy with.

Matt Burke 00:45:21 But what do you use?

Tyson Mutrux 00:45:22 So we use Zoho Analytics, and that's where we have a CTO that's built those out. But that was a lot of work. It's not like what you have was the metrics where you have like it's sort of a I wouldn't say it's like a, you know, set it and forget it, but it's yours. So hook it up is probably a lot easier than what we did with Zoho, because a lot of it had to be coded and everything. But I do wonder if maybe simplify this for law firm owners that don't have have dashboards, because we can talk about it all. We want a lot of people, I'm sure, that have been listening. They've been thinking about setting up dashboards for years and they just haven't done it. So what's a simple way that someone could get started with some sort of dashboard to focus on what's important when it comes to their firm?

Matt Burke 00:46:03 I'd say just literally Google Sheet and just have have, whether it's weekly or monthly, you can have the columns right there and just, hey, it leads, consults, no shows, just track everything right there.

Matt Burke 00:46:13 I mean, in the absence of if you don't have a CRM or your CRM, functionality doesn't allow you to visualize the data like you want. You know, you can use Zapier or some other kind of connection that just puts the data in there. We got a spreadsheet that essentially we can connect with, like Lord Maddox or Cleo, and then it also connects with Callrail. And so then it just kind of self audits. So it'll look in the CRM and then it'll look in coral to see if there's like a phone number, name or email match so we can know, hey, this lead came from here. This came lead from here. The advantage of doing that too, especially if you're like using Google Ads, is you can send offline conversions back. And so this could be super killer for like max campaigns performance max because like the search landscape for Google ads is like constantly changed and it's changed a lot. Now there's AI summary.

Tyson Mutrux 00:46:58 It's going to change more in the future to in the near future.

Tyson Mutrux 00:47:01 Yeah.

Matt Burke 00:47:01 Oh, 100%. Even I don't know. I'm assuming you're in the AI.

Tyson Mutrux 00:47:06 Oh, yeah. Big time.

Matt Burke 00:47:07 How are you using AI in your firm?

Tyson Mutrux 00:47:09 So lots of different ways. We're building out a team of agents right now. We're using it for content creation from case management. The next phase we're going to be dealing with actually file reviews. That's going to be a big one where it's going to be monitoring files. There's a lot of areas where we're using it. We what made me really I've talked about this before, but what made me really, really mad is when OpenAI came out with ChatGPT, at the time, we costume and I were actually working with one of the big four accounting firms, one of the people that worked for them. I'm not going to mention the company, but was helping us build out an AI platform. And for and and then ChatGPT came out and changed completely everything we were doing. So yeah, we were we it's it's in going to be in pretty much every aspect of our firm.

Tyson Mutrux 00:47:53 What about you.

Matt Burke 00:47:53 Yeah. same. I mean, we I've incorporated everything across what we do. Even personally, I've started using it a lot. So, like, one of the things I've done is I took a bunch of personality tests like Myers-Briggs, Colby, Wealth Dynamics, Fascination Advantage uploaded them as a project to just kind of like, psychoanalyze myself. Another thing I did, which was pretty sick is I went to a quest health comm. You can get, like, the blood tests and stuff. And so they got, like this $500 one that's got, like, all the panels you can think. So I've done that three times. But then what I did is I, you know, put my age, my weight, my height, my measurements and all that stuff fed all that data in there. And it's like, dude, you can't get I've hired a coach before. Like that level of it's crazy. The amount of like insights and facts you can get from that. Like it was able to literally adjust my diet based on my, my, my blood stuff.

Matt Burke 00:48:43 I do mainly carnivore, but then like give me a shopping list, give me a workout routine, give me all the things. Hey, this is how big you'll be if you follow this program. Boom, boom boom, buy this state, stuff like that. It's crazy, but the only thing I get scared about with AI is how many phone numbers do you have memorized in your head?

Tyson Mutrux 00:48:59 Oh, 5 to 10, probably.

Matt Burke 00:49:01 How many times have you used Google Maps to go somewhere you've already been?

Tyson Mutrux 00:49:05 It's funny, I use it all the time. And that's from a pilot thing though, because I like to know how much time it takes when I'm going to get there. And I also like to know if, because Google will reroute me if there's a crash or something. And that's why I yeah that's why. But a lot. So I get I know where you're heading with this a lot.

Matt Burke 00:49:22 Yeah I mean you're you're older than I am. So like literally in our lifetime, our cognitive ability to remember things because I was alive.

Matt Burke 00:49:29 When you turn this to dial the phone, right. Like, you know, if if your buddy wasn't home, like, you know, talk to you later, right? But we figured out how to get to where we were going, and we we stayed in touch with people, but literally just in our lifetime, not even like a new generation or anything. Our cognitive ability to remember things that were once just a normal part of doing things. You remember how to go here and you remember people's phone numbers is gone. So that's one of the things where I think that, you know, AI for kids could be potentially a slippery slope over time because it kind of like takes the need of, of real kind of critical thinking and deep thought in some ways. But then it also for some people, like it helps me actually think more because you can generate a bunch of ideas and kind of like throw stuff out there, but it's all context, you know. How much information does it have?

Tyson Mutrux 00:50:13 There was that recent MIT study where they it was about writing papers, and it was interesting how it did talk about how it definitely affected the ability of the people to write, because and the other part of it is the is the recall.

Tyson Mutrux 00:50:26 People could not remember what they quote unquote wrote just minutes after they wrote it. They had no idea what they had written. And I do that part. That part's really, really scary. So yeah, I think we're we're still it's kind of like with social media, it took us 20 something years, you know, to kind of figure out what to do and what not to do with social media, even though we're still making a lot of those mistakes. I think it's going to be the same thing. But I want to go back to what you said about the blood test, because I used function health, which also uses quest. So you schedule it through quest to do that. I think it's interesting that they've got their own thing, but I so I uploaded my data from from Function Health and I also whoop I aware of whoop because the Jeremy Danielson had recommended it.

Matt Burke 00:51:08 What's a whoop. Is it like tracks your bios or whatever.

Tyson Mutrux 00:51:11 So it's yeah it tracks you're sleeping, attracts your breathing.

Tyson Mutrux 00:51:15 Yeah. All the bio stuff and really, really good. You know, you know when you should sleep, when you shouldn't sleep. All that one should wake up and it's really, really good. But it it gave me like what, what my day should look, what my week should look like, what, what I should eat, give me diet plans. It also gave me like recipes, a bunch of different. I did the same thing you did. It was really smart. What's interesting is I want to ask you about and then I'm going to go to the video thing because I probably I teased that at the beginning. So I wanted our video setups. But so you are, you're you're doing the carnivore thing. I've been vegan since 2020, which was a big shift for me because I was a huge meat eater. Steaks every week kind of a thing. And I wonder how long have you been doing the carnivore stuff and what kind of benefits have you seen from it.

Matt Burke 00:51:57 So like seven months, but I haven't done it.

Matt Burke 00:51:59 Like perfect. I'm not like I'm probably more keto than just pure carnivore. But the reason why I got into it is my brother Jake. He's a couple years younger than I am, but he's so I'm 511, I'm 230 right now. He's was like six two and 280. So he's a big boy. He starts going on this carnivore diet because we went to Thailand. I did like a team trip out there. He went as well. And you know, he saw the pictures and he's like, damn, I need to do something about this. And so he went on this thing for, I don't know, it was maybe like eight months. And he literally got down to 220. He's never been that in his life. And I'm just like, dude, what are you doing for like workouts and stuff? He's like, I'm not even working out. He's like, I'm literally just eating pure carnivore. And he did not cheat at all. But so he did that. And then my mom did it, you know, and she was like sent.

Matt Burke 00:52:47 since she was feeling better. My wife's got gestational diabetes right now, and, so she's had some issues with, you know, like blood sugar going up and down. It goes away when after she'll have the baby. But she started eating kind of more carnivore like, just not fully, but just steaks and way more meat. Totally, totally went down with me. I ended up going, like, took like three inches off my waist, even though I gained £10 put on muscle because, like, I was pretty skinny in December, like I was, I wasn't really in shape. So this is pretty much this eight months. I've been just kind of on it. Not crazy. I've missed days and stuff like that. But energy is better. Like the three things I changed in order of impact is sleep. I used to get up at like 435 in the morning, and then I'd go to sleep kind of late too, because sometimes I just like my mind's going, I want to get up and kind of get to it.

Matt Burke 00:53:36 And then I wasn't eating good, so I'd eat like, I generally eat breakfast, but then I might wait till, like, dinner to eat or, you know, stuff like that. And then I just noticed my energy levels. And so I started like, hey, I'm gonna wake up at seven. I'm gonna just I'm gonna make sure I get a solid eight hours. Did that. And then I changed my diet, started doing the Carnivore. Taking creatine to all that kind of stuff. And then the workouts. But like, that just totally changed my energy level 100%.

Tyson Mutrux 00:54:01 I wonder what. So a couple things with the for people that even even for male or female creatine is massive. And there are new studies came out fairly recently where if you double it, if you're doing like 20mg, there's massive mental benefits of brain benefits to it, which is which is cool. But was the first 30 days on the carnivore diet as bad as I've heard.

Matt Burke 00:54:21 So me, I like eating like cake and like stuff like that.

Matt Burke 00:54:24 So that that was torture dude. Or not having like toast with I usually eat eggs in the morning anyway, so I've always, you know, ate eggs and all that stuff. So that wasn't a big change. Pretty much already eat this stuff anyway. I was just also eating carbs, you know? So it was it was hard. But over time, you know, I think once you can get it long enough to start seeing results, then you're going to be more committed. But you got to kind of break through to that first part where you're like, okay, I'm noticing some changes, but the energy level was like pretty fast, like within like a week. I just felt better. You know, I wasn't eating chips, you know, any processed food, anything. I just eat literally like eggs, steak, chicken, turkey, tuna and just cycle through them and just get an air fryer so it's super easy.

Tyson Mutrux 00:55:08 Oh, yeah. Air fryers make things so much easier. All right.

Tyson Mutrux 00:55:10 So let's let's shift over to the video stuff. So I beforehand I was asking you if that was a real background. And you, you you surprised me with the answer because it's not a real background. It's not a it's not one of those fake backgrounds, like a zoom background. Walk us through your backyard because that's really cool. And if you can, can you can you do what you did before you changed it?

Matt Burke 00:55:27 Yeah. So just for for everybody watching, basically what I got is I can in camera right here and I'm not using a teleprompter, but you can use an iPad for a teleprompter and have it reflect right there. And then I have a key light. It's probably going to be hard to show all this. I'm all plugged in, but I can send you some pictures later or something. Yeah, yeah. I got a light here. I got a light here. I got a light here. Then this is a TV back here. And so you can, you know, change like the design and kind of pop up however you want to pop up.

Matt Burke 00:55:55 Some of these are kind of crappy but end up going, kind of going with this one right here. I think it's different views. But what's good about this is when you have like I've noticed this for and I think this could be good for attorneys obviously because you can do YouTube. I use OBS studio. So I can literally come in here and just say like Alexa Studio on the lights, come on. I turn on OBS studio, I turn on the camera and then OBS studio. It's a, it's a free software that as it records, it's going to record you vertically at the same time. So you're, you're literally recording an MP four of just a regular kind of YouTube format and a short at the same time. And then another thing, another little life hack. You ever heard of the stream deck?

Tyson Mutrux 00:56:36 Yeah. Okay. So tell me how you use your. I've not pulled the trigger on one. Even like you can find them on Facebook Marketplace for super cheap anybody that wants to use them.

Tyson Mutrux 00:56:45 But I'm curious how you use them.

Matt Burke 00:56:47 So I have like hotkeys if I want to just share the screen real quick. I don't have it plugged in right now, but let's say I want to share the screen and not show myself or like have your picture appear here or here or here, or you can add your logo so you can create all these different scenes in OBS studio, and then you can just create these hotkeys here, a record button as well. I haven't done this yet, but one of the things I'm going to do is have it set up to where right now I can just say, Alexa, studio on, the lights turn on, I can open up OBS studio, click record, and then as soon as it's done recording it up, it just puts it into a folder on my on my desktop right here or my laptop. But I'm going to just automate that to automatically go to Google Drive and then automatically just, you know, create a task for somebody and click up to just edit the videos.

Matt Burke 00:57:33 So that's the plan because the whole idea is, you know, you can put a TV behind you, you can have a spare bedroom somewhere, you can put like a standing desk. Got the camera there? It looks kind of like shit because you're going to have lights and all that. It is what it is. But you can hop into a console, you can hop into a video for YouTube or a video for, like, your thank you page or something on the website, like a landing page and just record content super fast.

Tyson Mutrux 00:57:57 I love it. I'm going to steal some of these ideas now. Every time I talk to someone as a stream deck.

Matt Burke 00:58:01 I'll send you a gear list too. I have a gear list in like a spreadsheet.

Tyson Mutrux 00:58:05 Oh, that'd be great.

Matt Burke 00:58:06 That has everything I got in. Just little, little tips and stuff like that.

Tyson Mutrux 00:58:10 So I'll tell you what, mine is the second, but the mic you have is really cool. What's the mic? Do you know.

Matt Burke 00:58:14 Yeah. This is a Sennheiser Mk 600 I have, I have like the the sure one two right here. But this one works really good. Like the it's it's super easy to set up. I have this and then I have the focus right. The focus right is like it just makes it to where you can connect it to to your computer. Easy. And then you can adjust the volume and stuff like that.

Tyson Mutrux 00:58:35 I love it. So mine is I've got so I've got a screen here, a screen here. And then what? I'm looking. I'm looking at you. It's I'm in a, it's a teleprompter. So it's it's the prompter by Elgato. So it's it's really handy okay. The only thing is.

Matt Burke 00:58:47 I have that one too.

Tyson Mutrux 00:58:48 I did die. Well that you have to at least on mine I had to dial. I've got this big window over here so I had to dial it in. I luckily Ryan Weber, he'd flown out. We had recorded some stuff and he had he set it up for me properly because I couldn't, I couldn't get the glare off of it because if you don't set up right, there'll be a glare from the actual lens because it's going through a lens.

Tyson Mutrux 00:59:06 But I've got set up similar. It's so Alexa podcast lighting off. See, the lights just went off. So that's it changes everything.

Matt Burke 00:59:13 Yeah that's.

Tyson Mutrux 00:59:13 Cool. So Alexa podcast lighting on. So sometimes it doesn't do Alexa podcast lighting on.

Matt Burke 00:59:18 The same when I was doing it earlier.

Tyson Mutrux 00:59:20 So it's completely different. And then it takes a second. It'll kind of adjust because now the lighting is a little bit yellow. And then it see how it kind of comes down. So it does take a little bit of time to to adjust it, which is pretty cool. But I do think the TV behind is really cool. How big is that TV?

Matt Burke 00:59:34 I think this is like an 85 inch TV.

Tyson Mutrux 00:59:36 Yeah, that's a massive it's gotta be massive because it's like you have full bodies in it. That's really cool.

Matt Burke 00:59:40 Yeah, exactly. The one problem that you can run into with this though, is like let's say, because usually when you're recording, right, you'll have like a key light or the ring light or whatever the light above you, you have a fill light, which is the light kind of like in your face.

Matt Burke 00:59:52 And then you'll usually have like a light right here, an edge light that's kind of getting the light here. And so whatever backgrounds you do like see this as like the light. Yeah. You want to have that. That's where you want to have like your edge light. So it's more natural looking. But the problem that you can have with the TV is that if you have a window or if you have any kind of light in the front, like I have to actually instead of have a front fill light, I put it off to the side because the light will reflect back there like super crazy. So that's one kind of like disadvantage of this setup. Yeah, I've thought about getting kind of like a little office just to have a studio setup where like there's not going to be no kids screaming or any kind of essentials like that, but this is what we got for now.

Tyson Mutrux 01:00:32 Yeah, I actually set up a studio at my house, but it's hard to it's it's even whenever I'm at home, You know, he had the kids.

Tyson Mutrux 01:00:37 But over here, to my right, I've actually got my entire. This is like my law firm office over there. Like, the desk is over there, which is a different setup, but I've got the window behind me on that one. And you're right about the lighting. It'd be really, really careful about where the lighting is, because otherwise you'll be able to see all of that in the window, which is kind of tough sometimes. You got to be careful.

Matt Burke 01:00:55 One of the things you can do too, like with the stream deck, if you wanted to, like how I've seen people use it. I haven't set it up like this though. But let's say you wanted to have like another camera angle. You can easily have a hotkey to switch to another one if you if you wanted to do that, or what you could do is have like a overhead, like let's say you wanted the right and you wanted somebody to see whether you're writing on like an iPad or you're just writing on a paper and so they can still see you, but then you're like taking notes and you can kind of make it like an interactive call or whatever, which which could be sometimes good in sales doing it that way.

Matt Burke 01:01:25 But you can have like a little overhead, the camera that you can just click a button switch and then they can see you writing.

Tyson Mutrux 01:01:30 Oh that's pretty cool. Yeah. So StreamYard just added something where you can do a second camera in StreamYard. So that would be really, really helpful to have that. Sometimes it's nice to have that little cutaway, you know, where it's it's a different just a different angle. Kind of like we're like we started with the show where you were kind of looking at a different spot, like.

Matt Burke 01:01:45 Yeah, that was manual.

Tyson Mutrux 01:01:47 But that was manual. But it would be kind of cool to have like that kind of a, a view where you have, you know, different angles and stuff like that. I think that I think that that'd be pretty useful.

Matt Burke 01:01:55 Yeah. That one you got to go with more of like a traditional background and don't put a TV because then the angle of it, it's just not going to fit the same, because with the angle on one side, you're going to be getting the TV from an angle.

Matt Burke 01:02:06 So they're going to be like, what the hell is up with that room?

Tyson Mutrux 01:02:08 You know? 100%. Yeah. But so before I wrap things up, I'll have one last question for you. But if people want to reach out to you and they've got they want to know more about Zelle metrics or working with you, what's the best way of of getting in touch with you?

Matt Burke 01:02:21 Just go to Zillow. Com and just go out there and then. Or you can email me at matt@psychometrics.com. So either way. And if it's if it's good with you can I give an offer to your audience.

Tyson Mutrux 01:02:32 Go for it. Yeah I think I think people would love that.

Matt Burke 01:02:34 So we we launched a chat called Zillow Metrics Chat, and it's the only chat that I know of that integrates with Callrail and integrates with Clio. It integrates with law, Mattox with Zapier, with make, with acuity with Calendly. So you can actually like book consultations through law. Mattox via this chat. And the killer part about it is it's unlimited chats.

Matt Burke 01:02:54 There's no per chat fees to get all the integrations, and we also have videos so you can incorporate video and all that stuff. And there it's 29 bucks a month. But we also have a free plan that we're going to just do free forever just to be like, bam, it's unlimited chats, free forever, no video, no integrations, but I'll give any person that mentions it on this audience a year or the free a year. The paid one for free.

Tyson Mutrux 01:03:15 Oh, nice. That's incredible.

Matt Burke 01:03:16 No credit card required. So just reach out and we'll we'll set them up. And they come with templates already. So we got pre-built like criminal defense p.I different intake templates but we can help build them out. But my whole thing is like what would you say if they picked up the phone? Let's put those questions in the chat and then let's keep it to where they can just use their thumb as much as possible, because nobody wants to text everything that happened to them. Let's collect their contact info and then either book, you know, get a little details that you can pre-qualify the leads better.

Matt Burke 01:03:45 But outside of that you know. But yeah, happy happy to offer everybody that.

Tyson Mutrux 01:03:49 Well, I appreciate that. I really appreciate that. And hopefully, hopefully people will reach out now to get that. Should they just go to the Zillow metrics.com or is there any special link or anything.

Matt Burke 01:03:58 Zilla metrics chat.

Tyson Mutrux 01:04:00 Okay so Zilla Zilla metrics metrics. So Zilla metrics com chat is the is there a code or is it just they'll just meant you just mentioned Maximum Lawyer.

Matt Burke 01:04:11 Yeah there's there's a free forever plan anyway. So if they just sign up just email me or hit the contact form and just say, hey, I'm a maximum lawyer listener. You know, I'm a long time listener, first time caller. I love it. So, you know, want to share the love real quick though? Max Law man, I'm glad you brought it back. What was with the hiatus?

Tyson Mutrux 01:04:31 You know, it was a lot of work. I'm glad you asked, because it's a great segue, because I wanted to, you know, thank you for being a sponsor.

Tyson Mutrux 01:04:38 You're you're a sponsor of Max Larken. And so I really appreciate you you helping us bring it back. But it is a lot of work. It is something that we spend basically we spend we're already planning 2026. So that's gives you an idea as to we spend all of our time. So every meeting that we have is about Max Logan. So we have not about Max lockdown, but we at least bring it up. We have other projects in the works that I think, and we'd probably be able to work go a little faster on those other projects if we weren't focusing on Max Lorcan as well. But so that was part of it. It was one of those things where we were it just it was a lot of work and we decided to okay, let's take a little break from it. And it was one of those things where I wasn't sure we were ever going to bring it back. But I do think at this point, I'm not sure we ever won't have it because I think it is a really important one.

Tyson Mutrux 01:05:26 I think I've never we've never been able to I've never been to another conference that has the same feel of Max Larken. It's just a different feel. It's everyone is there to to lift everyone else up. It's so different. The closest I've ever had was going to Ikon for Infusionsoft, and surprisingly, they had gotten rid of theirs and I thought that was a massive mistake. So it's one of those things where we're creating, we're bringing that back, we're bringing back macroeconomics. I think people really wanted it. It's a great opportunity for people to meet in person, especially these days, whenever AI is is becoming a big deal. And so I think having those in-person events are more and more important. Important. It is funny because we've had we've had the guild, we've still had in-person events with the guild. Those are, you know, quarterly. We were having those four times a year, but it still wasn't the same as having the conference. You know, people still wanted to bring the conference.

Matt Burke 01:06:19 The vibes were good there, man. You took the words out of my mouth because I've been to a lot of legal conferences, but that just has its own kind of feel to it. You know? Everybody's super cool. I'm excited to be back there.

Tyson Mutrux 01:06:29 Yeah. That's awesome. Like I said, thank you though for for being a sponsor because it is one of those things where I don't I. Hopefully people do understand. I don't know if they do or not, but we could not do it just with ticket sales it is not possible. It's one of those things where it's not like we make a bunch of money. We're not even sure we'll make money on this conference. It's one of those things where we it is it's a very tight sort of thing because these hotels and the venue spaces are extremely expensive. So we we definitely have to rely on, on great partners like, like Zillow Metrics to, to put things like this on. And the thing is, like we're also very selective with who we work with.

Tyson Mutrux 01:07:04 It's one of those things where we don't just take money from anybody to do these things. We will. We turn people away. It's it's one of those things where we only work with, with good vendors that we trust. And that's so that's super, super important to us too. So I want people to know that too, because we don't just work with anybody. We don't. It's we've always been very, very careful about, you know, who do we allow into the Facebook group? Who do we allow to come onto the podcast, all these different things because people do. It affects our reputation too. You know, it's one of those things. It affects us.

Matt Burke 01:07:32 And so and the Facebook group that that's the one thing that kind of. Yeah, that's how I first found you guys. And it's like one of those things where you can kind of tell right when you get into the Facebook group how it's ran, because, you know, you see a lot of these groups where people are spamming and, you know, it's just literally noise, you know, versus like, there's a lot of good meaty discussions in there where a lot of times when I have people that, you know, fill out a book of call with me or stuff like that, and they're just getting started.

Matt Burke 01:07:57 I constantly refer people to Maximum Lawyer because I'm like, dude, just go ask a bunch of a bunch of attorneys what phone system? Boom boom boom. What this what that what? That there's just tons of stuff in there. So it's it's it's good. It's. You guys built an incredible thing.

Tyson Mutrux 01:08:09 Well thanks, man, I appreciate that. I think the, the thing we got the most complaints about is whenever we shifted to, you had to submit your the post and then it had to be approved because it was one of those things where we were definitely trying to prevent spam. And sometimes people will have their post. It'll be denied. I'm like, sorry. It's in violation of the rules. We can't can't do it. And so sometimes we do get people a little upset with that. But it's really just to protect the the community overall because we don't want to we don't want to there to be a bunch of spam in there. We just don't because otherwise people won't want to, won't want to be there.

Tyson Mutrux 01:08:40 But I want to ask you, the last question we ask you about is mindset. And because you've worked with a lot of different types of people, you've worked with a lot of different types of law firm owners. And I do wonder because you I mean, you've worked with them, you know, at lower stages of revenue, higher stages of revenue. And I do wonder what what you maybe have noticed when it comes to mindset and what mindset shifts, maybe law firm owners need to make to get from that. That six figure point to like the seven figures and maybe the seven figures to the eight figures. So have you have you noticed anything when it comes to mindset when it comes to the the highly successful attorneys and the not so successful attorneys.

Matt Burke 01:09:16 The highly successful ones, even if they're not successful yet like they're they're doing the building blocks and you see them moving there, they're just obsessed with it. Like, there's really no I mean, that's just the main thing I see. Like, that's what they're thinking about every day.

Matt Burke 01:09:29 They're not deluding themselves with other thoughts. They're they're keeping, you know, different projects and stuff to a minimum. It's really just, hey, this is what I'm going to do. This is what I'm going to build. And then the ones that really, you know, get they're the fastest they've they've looked at, okay, what's my revenue goal. What's my average case value okay. This is how many clients I need to get okay. Well how many consults do I need to get this many clients. And then they start working backwards to go, okay, this is how many leads I need to get to get this many consults to get this many clients. And so what's the lead cost. And so it's just like, you know, you don't start with this data, but you start with a revenue goal. And generally people can have an idea of what their average case value is. And then there it's just collect the data until you have the data. And now you've got the information to really, you know, move.

Matt Burke 01:10:12 Because once you know that, then you can start planning, like, okay, when do I make my next hire? How much revenue do I need to be at. Right. How much cash do I have in the bank. Right. Because you want to have, you know, cash reserves before you start hiring because, you know, growth usually doesn't do that. It goes this and then it kind of goes like this while you're fixing shit. And then it goes like this. And, you know, it's like I was talking to somebody the other day and we were talking about that whole like the creative cycle. You know, I'm talking about or it's like you got what do they call it? It's like uninformed optimism when you first start something and then you start running into problems. And then it's like informed pessimism. And it's like most people just literally quit at that point. Try something else versus like the people that just push through, they become informed optimists because then they understand, okay, this is just what I didn't know.

Matt Burke 01:10:55 And one of the ways you can do to fast track that is like, you don't necessarily have to join a coaching program and spend 20, 30, 40, $50,000 right off the bat. You can just literally buy an hour of somebody time, right? Literally like, okay, 300, 500, whatever. Just tell me this stuff. And then sometimes you don't even know what questions to ask. But after series of those conversations, you end up knowing. So then when you go to do something bigger, you just have way more insights into what you really need to do or what you need to do next. You know, so that that's been like, I think a really kind of good way to look at it is just source. Source knowledge and expertise specifically for the problem you're facing versus try to find somebody that is just going to wave a magic wand and solve everything, right, because you don't know what you don't know. But just focus on the one thing.

Tyson Mutrux 01:11:40 The creativity loop that you're talking about.

Tyson Mutrux 01:11:41 It is it has not been more evident than in jiu jitsu for anyone that's done jiu jitsu. You know what I'm talking about? It is you start with all this energy, the it's the uninformed optimism, and then you're quickly, you're quickly taught that that is not you don't know what the hell you're doing. So but it is this cycle where you you do you constantly cycle through, you get better or you get better, but then you, you, you go against someone that's that's better than you or you learn a technique, get humbled. You get humbled very quickly. And so but but business is like that.

Matt Burke 01:12:12 I've never done jiu jitsu. What's that? I've never done jiu jitsu, but I do Muay Thai in boxing.

Tyson Mutrux 01:12:17 I've. I've done boxing. I've wanted to do Muay Thai, but there's really no one around here that does Muay Thai. But I've wanted to do it. I've heard it really as bad on your shins, so. But it sounds awesome.

Matt Burke 01:12:26 Yeah. I mean, you're gonna wear, like, shin protectors usually when you're sparring, because if you don't and you're not conditioned like one, you can't train like that because you will be straight up injured.

Matt Burke 01:12:35 You know what I mean? Like, you're not going to be able to keep training without, like, shin pads if you're really sparring.

Tyson Mutrux 01:12:39 That's why whenever we're in Nashville, you're about to show me some techniques because I think it's awesome. But thank you again for doing this. I know we went long, but it's one of those things where I knew we were going to go long because, you know, I like to chat. So it's it's good. But I appreciate you doing this show. I've won. I've enjoyed this show quite a bit, but thank you for being a sponsor. But I look forward to seeing you out in Nashville.

Matt Burke 01:12:58 Yeah. Likewise. Tyson, I appreciate the invite onto the podcast. And just for your time today. All right. Looking forward to seeing you out there.

Tyson Mutrux 01:13:04 Zillow metrics comm. Check it out.