Maximum Lawyer

Tyson Mutrux 00:00:02 This is maximum lawyer with your host, Tyson Matrix.

Erik Ovesny 00:00:11 Eric, I find you to be really interesting because you own two companies. You own meat, Gaby. And then arrow affect marketing. Make sure I say that right. I don't know if it's aero or aero effect marketing.

Erik Ovesny 00:00:23 Yep. You got it.

Erik Ovesny 00:00:25 So can you. Can you share the story of how you went from the one company to then seeing a gap in the market and starting the other company?

Erik Ovesny 00:00:34 Yeah. So, you know, with Aero effect and you had it right there. It's actually kind of a fun fact. The aero is actually my son's initials. And when I became an entrepreneur, I knew the tough road that was ahead just through some of my friends and just, you know, reading about just the world of entrepreneurship, that it was going to be one that's very easily one that you may want to avoid or try to quit. And so I knew by having those initials, there were a great reminder to keep going and I'm glad I did.

Erik Ovesny 00:01:01 So I started Arrow Effect Marketing and I got I've been doing it for well over a decade now, but I've always had, you know, an itch for storytelling. And so what I found was even when I was working in corporate or working with other law firms, I was constantly getting, you know, poached a, you know, whether it be at a conference or someone, you know, grabbing me to the side saying, hey, you know, what do you think about this? And I really loved the ability to tell those stories through advertising and marketing. So I started doing that. That then evolved into lead generation because, you know, at the end of the day, that's that's what people want. They want good quality leads to help generate new business. Right. And really what what how it paved from arrow into me. Gabby was when we were doing lead gen, we noticed very consistent issues with intake and reception. And I noticed this too from my world. I worked in-house at law firms for a number of years prior to going and doing my own thing full time, and that was that.

Erik Ovesny 00:01:55 There was a lot of slow response times when leads would come in. There was a lot of issues with some firms just didn't have. They don't have the personnel. You know, it might have just been, you know, things that were out of their control. And so fortunately, this came at a time where technology just was advancing rapidly. And so I became obsessed with this, you know, the this notion of voice technology and these AI agents. And we started rolling this out with an arrow. So me, Gabby really started off as kind of like an additional, you know, offering through our arrow product. But we noticed the clients that were utilizing it were converting 20, 30% more cases, all because of the speed to lead. And so that's really the story of how you know me. Gabby started. And then from there, me, Gabby just continued to grow through word of mouth through, you know, obviously the conference circuit and brought us to where we're at today.

Erik Ovesny 00:02:44 I'm always in situations like this I'm more curious about, like how you manage the two companies and really anything else, because that can be the hard part because, I mean, arrow is your baby, right? And you don't want to neglect that.

Erik Ovesny 00:02:57 But which one gets more of your time, I wonder?

Erik Ovesny 00:03:00 Oh, yeah. Well, the trick is you try to sleep as much as you can, but it's it's. I'm burning the midnight oil constantly. But without a doubt, me, Gabby, that's the world I live in. So actually, what I did with arrow is I had a great relationship with someone that was in the legal industry. New legal advertising, legal advertising. Her name was Hope Wagner, and she came on and joined arrow as the CEO to help run the day to day activities. And while I'm still involved, Hope is really the one leading the charge right now with arrow, and she's doing a great job. We're continuing to innovate, but I put most of my time towards me, Gabby, because I love the world of innovation. My our team focused on the products for today while I'm focused on the products for tomorrow. So me, Gabby is definitely getting the majority of the time from me. But we've got a great team over at arrow that's it's fortunately allowed me to do that.

Erik Ovesny 00:03:48 Was it difficult to let go of the reins and let someone else take the take over Arrow.

Erik Ovesny 00:03:53 Yeah. It was. You know, it is tough. Especially as you mentioned. It's your baby. So you get really nervous. Like, if it's not, you're not touching everything, you know. And having that, you know, specific love the TLC involved with every conversation, every piece of art or creatives that you're putting together. But I got to a point where it's just like you had no choice. Right. I got to a point where I'm like, I can't, I'm only human as much as like, we like to think, oh, we could do it all. I fortunately came to the realization that I need some help and again, just finding the right people and putting them in the right positions really has allowed me to focus on the things that I enjoy doing. So definitely, you know, I've been through the ringer with trying to find, you know, the right people to, to, to, to match the right roles.

Erik Ovesny 00:04:34 But I've been very fortunate certainly at arrow that has allowed me to get me Gabby where it is today.

Erik Ovesny 00:04:39 That's awesome. Now, I know that the the legal space, it's been hard to find talent when it comes to hiring, and it seems like it's getting harder and harder. I wonder if you're having the same issue when it comes to like, a legal adjacent space like that?

Tyson Mutrux 00:04:53 Yeah. You know, it's so crazy.

Erik Ovesny 00:04:55 So I'll tell you this. So we just put out probably within the last month and a half, and we had over 600 submissions for different positions we were hiring for, but we were getting submissions from like, people that were working at space. And I share that with you because I think the world that we're in, even though it is legal, I think there's like a genetic AI in this world that people know this is where the future is and they're interested, and we only scratch the surface, I believe, with with where this is going. And we're going to see a lot more of this in other industries.

Erik Ovesny 00:05:25 But, you know, the legal industry specifically for us, one of the things about Mugabe is we at one point we're thinking about doing health care. The intakes are very well. It's very different. They're very similar in the way they approach them. But we quickly realize there's a lot of hoops, you know, in the health care world that, you know, certainly we could we could tackle, but we realize, like legal is where where it's where it's at. It's where the space that I'm comfortable with. I've been working in the legal industry for well over a decade. And, you know, it's a space we decided to, you know, stay in, in the lane to stay in and solve these issues.

Erik Ovesny 00:05:57 So why do you feel that the legal space is so safe?

Tyson Mutrux 00:06:00 you know, actually.

Erik Ovesny 00:06:01 I wouldn't say safe. I feel it, it's safe. I feel like it's a good fit for us. I think for a couple of reasons. This is the working legal industry. I could tell you from what I've seen, that we're not always pioneers.

Erik Ovesny 00:06:13 The legal industry isn't exactly out there pioneering and adopting new technology rapidly. But for the first time at least in my career, I'm seeing law firms interested in adopting quicker. They're recognizing that we've got to make some change and adapt, and I've just really enjoyed it. I it's odd, but I come from a family that, you know, I my my uncle's a lawyer. I'm very close with him. And so I grew up in the space again. I took a weird pivot early on in my career where I was, I just happened to, you know, find some marketing work. And I was working at in-house as director of marketing law firms. It's a space I felt very comfortable with. I've always enjoyed talking to lawyers because you're dealing with people that they're extremely smart, but they're extremely busy and they love, you know, finding solutions like ones that era with lead gen or ones that meet Gabby, that help them, saves time and continue to generate revenue.

Erik Ovesny 00:07:01 Yeah, I the reason I was asking, because I do think that there's a bit of a fence that we have, I think of all of the spaces that are being touched by AI, and I've, I'm already on record of predicting there's going to be a bit of a contraction.

Erik Ovesny 00:07:15 Not I'm not a huge one. I do think there's going to be a contraction, but our roles are going to shift dramatically over the next decade dramatically. But that doesn't mean we're going to have less people or a lot less people. There's going to be less people. There's gonna be people that are gonna leave the legal space. But I think that there's a bit of a fence when it comes to the court system. So you have the court system. It is it is fenced off. The courts have been very resistant to AI, and rightfully so, because there's been a lot of cases that have been cited that are fake, that are hallucinated cases, not real cases. But I do think there's a bit of offence which which does protect us a little bit. Now, my concern and this is I don't know if I've had a conversation about this on the show. This might freak out people I know. I've had this conversation outside of the show, but I I'm, I'm kind of thinking about Neuralink, like something like Neuralink.

Erik Ovesny 00:08:08 And I'm it's interesting because I was having this conversation with some attorneys after a depot and they'd never heard of Neuralink. My client hadn't heard of Neuralink. And I'm kind of like thinking about this, like, think about this scenario and this. This kind of terrifies me. And I hadn't thought about it until recently. Where imagine you're in court, right? You don't want Neuralink, you don't want some this chip attached to your brain. But then you've got and I'm I'm just using Neuralink generally. I mean, there could be a lot of different companies that pop up. But let's say you're arguing a motion. Know Neuralink, the person next to you has Neuralink has access to everything that they would need at their They're just boom. Thinking about it. Boom. Or maybe they've got some AI glasses or whatever. They got it on their screen or whatever, but that's that terrifies me a little bit, because now you're talking about a substantial shift in and what we're doing inside the court system.

Erik Ovesny 00:08:59 It is.

Erik Ovesny 00:09:00 That's really crazy. And it's scary. I mean, you know, think about how people are going to adopt that, you know, technology with Neuralink. And, you know, right now it's crazy to think about stuff. I mean, sometimes I have to stop and pinch myself when we're building these, or I'm like, I spend ten hours a day talking to robots that know me by my name. They greet me and I remember watching stuff like this, you know, when I was younger, like the superhero movies with my son, I'm like, this is reality. Like, this is I'm living in this every day. And yeah, even just a big shift, I always talk about to like, you know, just coming from the world of social media advertising is, you know, Mark Zuckerberg. He's definitely putting a lot of emphasis on the glasses and going all in, which I think we're going to see some really cool stuff We actually are starting to again, part of my innovation in thinking of what's coming tomorrow, or we're trying to figure out ways we can actually adapt some of that.

Erik Ovesny 00:09:50 Especially with helping with things like depositions where you can, you know, put on a pair of glasses and be transformed into, you know, a space where you can build some comfort levels and, you know, practice those, you know, just depositions with maybe some younger attorneys. But yeah, certainly to your point, I mean, it shifts the balance. I mean, it gives a huge advantage. And, you know, we could run from it or, you know, just just try to, you know, be in denial with AI. But it, I mean, I, I thought to myself the other day, going back, you know, five, ten years ago working some of the stuff that would take me weeks I'm getting done in minutes. And I'm like, I couldn't imagine, like, if this just went away now because I've become so dependent on AI as far as just my everyday, you know, workload or helping to schedule things, keep things organized and it's it's truly fantastic.

Erik Ovesny 00:10:36 I will say, you know, from my perspective too, especially building meek Abbey. We know there is a big misconception, I think, with just voice AI and like a gentle AI is that we're all trying to replace human jobs. I mean, and AI in general, it's inevitable. It's going to replace certain positions. But I can tell you we built we built Mugabi specifically to work in tandem with human personnel, and there still is a big need for that. But again, going off what you said, I think yeah, there's definitely some scary times ahead when it comes to things like Neuralink and how that's going to shift the balance in the courtroom.

Erik Ovesny 00:11:09 Yeah, I think with the AI, I don't think it's the reason. I don't think it's going to be a replacement. I think what it's going to do is it's going to get rid of the mundane stuff, and it's going to it's going to allow that to be AI, to do all that. And then you shift the firm's shift more into like that customer service focus, where they can focus on the human part of it.

Erik Ovesny 00:11:27 The only thing that humans can do and not the other part of it. But I guess the only but what I would have is, do you ever have have conversations with ChatGPT or Grok or any of the other ones?

Tyson Mutrux 00:11:39 Oh, yeah.

Erik Ovesny 00:11:40 Yeah. I mean, there's certainly things I'll go out to, like, outside of, you know, just. Hey, how do I do this? How do I develop code for this? How would you approach this? I sometimes just go to it and be like, hey, you know, I'm dealing with this issue. If you were, you know, in this situation, how would you recommend. And it sometimes gives like recommendations. I'm like, this is this is pretty good. I try not to rely on, you know, ChatGPT or Grok or any of these other ones is technically my therapy because then my my minutes would be astronomical. But yeah. No, it's again it's it's scary. I have a, you know, app. We have like a personalized Gabby app on my phone where I can just click and she, she knows me and I can talk to her.

Erik Ovesny 00:12:15 And I try not to abuse that too much just because I don't want to become too reliant. But yeah, it's definitely something that's become a daily part of my life.

Erik Ovesny 00:12:22 Yeah, the conversations have gotten really good. Now I it's not at the point where it really it replaced that human element, but it is one of those things where you could you could have you even said she and her like those. That's how you described it. You know, I and I try to intentionally force myself to call it it that way. I don't I don't fall into that because it is one of those things where it's it's scary good sometimes for sure.

Tyson Mutrux 00:12:45 Yeah. It is.

Erik Ovesny 00:12:46 You know, as far as you know, how I think you made a really good point is I think people it's those are that are going to adapt. Right. I think what I love and what I'm seeing in the AI space, it's it's forcing people to get more creative. Right. We know it's there. We know everyone's, you know, using it to some degree for the most part.

Erik Ovesny 00:13:04 If you're not, then, you know, again, you're you're probably losing out. But it's something where I think like, well, I'm enjoying it is because creative folks like myself and just the just creative people in general can really thrive in this space because, you know, that's the one thing I mean, as creative as AI can get and it will continue to be, it's the people behind it. It's the prompts and how you can, you know, get creative. The way you're styling things that that really make this I think this, this technology powerful. And I'm certainly having fun with it. It doesn't always go, you know exactly how I wanted to. And I'm when I'm playing around. But I spent a lot of time in R&D with, with with our good old Nick. Abby.

Erik Ovesny 00:13:40 Yeah. The thing about the creative point about that, it's really important. There was I'm trying to I can't remember the guy's name. There's a guy that does a lot on vibe coding. He's got a YouTube channel.

Erik Ovesny 00:13:50 He does. He's you know, he basically builds these companies live doing vibe coding. And I think it's pretty cool. Then he does these podcasts. But he he was talking about like, we're in this weird age where the creatives are the ones that have a lot more control because they can just pop the idea out of their head into an AI, and the AI can then build the thing that they're wanting. And that is pretty cool. Where it is that your point about that creativity is, is well taken, because we can get so creative. And that may be my my favorite part about right now is just being able to take this idea, put it down and then watch the AI build. It is is really, really just incredible. So I think you're right about that. I do want to I want to shift gears a little bit. We have a mutual friend and he's an investor in meet Gabby and Adam Rawson. So he invested it. And that's how we first learned about meet Gabby was was through Adam.

Erik Ovesny 00:14:44 And and I think that I think that does give you some instant credibility in the legal space. Knowing someone like Adam. Adam I'd say it's pretty influential. So I wonder how that how did that partnership come about?

Tyson Mutrux 00:14:56 Yeah. No, Adam is awesome.

Erik Ovesny 00:14:58 Him along with Tom, Tom Tona from Tony Law, those two have become great strategic partners of ours. Actually, the way they came on board was they actually found like one of our ads and demoed us. And, you know, we came to find out that they demoed many other companies and they said that they, you know, liked us the best, and they were very interested in signing up. And as this conversations continued, you know, for me, I, you know, I come from the legal background. This wasn't something I just created and said, hey, let's go after lawyers, you know, let's go after law firms. I knew how this space work. I knew how to. Especially coming from the marketing side, the lawyers are getting inundated every single day with spam and, you know, solicitations on who the best.

Erik Ovesny 00:15:38 You know, with the marketing, who the best. You know, AI is. And they go with the ones they trust. It's a very and as large of a of a community. It is it's it's actually a lot smaller than I think a lot of people realize. Word spreads very fast in this community. So I was very excited at the idea of having strategic partners like Adam and Tom joined, because I knew that not only from an R&D perspective and getting advice. What do you think about this? How would you how should we do this with your system and how we can we then roll that out and, you know, our updated model and also just having a product that we're trying to brand and just kind of promote, as, you know, a product built for lawyers, vetted by lawyers. I think you're absolutely right. I think our brand equity and just the trust goes way up. And I think with AI in general, there still is. While people are adopting, there's still a lot of distrust.

Erik Ovesny 00:16:26 You know, one of some of the common things we get okay, I remember when we first started going around the conference circuit and promoting it. Everyone loved it, but some of the feedback we got was, I think it'll be good in about a year. I don't think it's there yet. Or like the technology in general, I don't see it doing this or that. And even in that short period of time, you know, 9 to 12 months, it's certainly beyond being there. But it's, you know, again, it's something where having partnerships and having people like Adam and Tom on board, I think are going to just, you know, build that, that credibility a bit more behind the product because we know we can deliver on the product. I mean, that's, that's, that's that's something that we certainly put a lot of time and effort into. But I think having someone like Adam and Tom involved to not only just from a trust and equity standpoint, but just also how can we continue to innovate, how can we continue to solve real world issues for, you know, real law firms? And they've been great at doing that.

Erik Ovesny 00:17:19 Having that is really important, having someone like having creative people like Tom and Adam a really important too, because they're open to to changing things up, but they also will give you that connection to the legal space to kind of kind of fill the gaps. And I know you've got you've got the background where you've, you, you know, you were raised around lawyers and you've worked in law firms and all that, but it does, you know, give you that connection as a lawyer, too, because I'm not going to mention the name of the company, but there's a company, and I don't know if the case management system is still around. I haven't heard about them in a while, but it was really interesting whenever I was talking to them about like they were basically saying and I was talking to the CEO and their development people. well, though, this is the way it's supposed to be, you're supposed to do it this way. And and I'm like, your user interface is terrible. Like, I don't know how to use this because you don't understand the law.

Erik Ovesny 00:18:11 So they have all these things position in places that they shouldn't have been. And so they just they were just ignoring the the way we practice law. And I found that really interesting. And I'm not. So I'm not surprised. I'm not really heard much about that company recently. I My guess is they're probably gone. So have they been able to give you that sort of perspective or, and I wonder if there's any specific thing you can think of where you maybe thought one thing and they're like, no, don't do it that way, because that sucks. You know, have you, have you had anything like that?

Tyson Mutrux 00:18:40 Yeah. Well, I tell you, I did a.

Erik Ovesny 00:18:42 Test run the other day and one of the newer features, we just launched a new voice model that we called Gabby in Motion. Plus, it's a great speech to speech model with our custom LM technology, and it has the ability to select different accents. So we'd get we had a, you know, we've we've nailed the Boston accent, the southern accent.

Erik Ovesny 00:19:00 But according to them, you know, the New York accent, they said, yeah, this is one that it's definitely a New York accent, but not the one that's going to come off the right way. So, you know, they've been great. And especially with the pricing structure, you know, as we continue, we have a great sales team that's led by we actually were able to get a great sales lead there and very seasoned the world of entrepreneurship and great with this technology and just the way we're pricing and selling it and positioning it at the end of the day. I think Tom and Adam have been really crucial in, you know, explaining this is really where what we want to see. I'm the type of guy when it comes to like sales or doing any of this, I it's all about, again, storytelling and how. You know, I try not to sell or position a product. You know that's even with arrow. The thing that I kind of fell out of love with, you know, for a while was, you know, how could we continue to become innovative? You know what made arrow innovative? For a while, at least up until, you know, now we've made a lot of adjustments.

Erik Ovesny 00:19:53 Was Gabby was the AI, you know, the infusion of that? But I think with Gabby, you know, again, with with Adam and Tom, we've been able to push the envelope. They've been able to help position us in the way. We're not only selling the product, but really what lawyers want to see. One of the things you know, that I recognize, too, and I know Tom and Adam attested to this as well, is when you're working with other softwares, like if you have a case management, we know how hard it is to get some of those stuff up and running. You know, technically, me, Gabby is more than just the voice AI system, and I think that's another big misconception. And we are our new model. And the way our new brand positioning is, we're we're more than that. We're a lead management system. We can do X, Y, and Z, but we also didn't want to lose the fact that they may not want to just go and use our system and drop their other systems.

Erik Ovesny 00:20:40 And I'm a big proponent why try to fix what's not broken? So for us, and even with the help of Adam and Tom, we're still working and playing well with other softwares, trying to ease that integration. So whatever flows into our system can flow into others. And that's something that I think they, they, they, they've, you know, really promoted with us. And, you know, I think we're all on the same page with that.

Erik Ovesny 00:21:00 You mentioned innovation. And that is something that I have observed just kind of casually over the years on the show where I see these law firms and they, they will stick to kind of one thing and then like, like a case management system is a is a great example where you've got, you know, this, this case management system that they've been using for two decades. They should definitely get out of it because it's so old. It's like on an old server or something like that. And they just they just won't because they're so stuck in their ways.

Erik Ovesny 00:21:31 And it's such an inefficient thing. And because it can be really hard to switch case management system, it's a painful thing. So I'm not trying to discount that part of it. But this is more about innovation. How can law firms make sure that they're focusing on innovating and making sure and for not just for innovation sake, but for actually improving the firm. So do you have any tips for for how to how maybe you will do it. You maybe did it an arrow or maybe how you do it at me. Gabby, you make sure that you're always innovating in a positive way.

Erik Ovesny 00:22:00 Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, the way I approach innovation, I mean, it's probably I don't know, I don't want to say unique, but I but let me put it this way, I'm not the type of guy that's always going out there and looking what others are doing. I think I'm pretty blessed in the sense that ideas come to my head. And as you mentioned, I thought it was a great point.

Erik Ovesny 00:22:18 I no longer have to just write it on pen or paper. I'll make I go and I just go. I think the biggest thing for innovation is action is taking action, doing something with that. Right. Not just putting it, you know, in the on the back burner and saying, I'll come back to that. I mean, that's, that's I as I really boil it down, what it has helped me if I have an idea and not being afraid to fail, not every idea is going to work. Or if you innovate something, you might end up hitting a roadblock. I've put weeks into certain things and I said, you know what? The hell with this. This isn't it. And and I don't look at it. Sometimes I'm hard on myself. Like, I just wasted, you know, x amount of hours on trying to get this going. But I've now come to the point now where I don't look at that as a waste of time. That was great R&D. I realized what doesn't work.

Erik Ovesny 00:22:59 So I mean, I guess if I had to pin down the advice from my perspective, it's really action and not looking at it in a way where you're afraid to, you know, waste your time because these are things that, even if it doesn't work out, will still help develop a better model, will still help you in finding the right path that's going to lead to innovation, I think, as it pertains to other softwares, though, and if I was in their position, there's a lot of great products out there. And, you know, even with us, like, you know, we're more than just voice saying there's there's a lot of great voices, there's a lot of great, you know, document AI companies out there. And, you know, it's always great to see what's out there. I personally don't spend a lot of time out there always looking, hey, what are these guys doing? What are they doing? I try to just, you know, really focus on our innovation, but I think in their case, to just send a scene what's out there, because I will tell you, I've seen some softwares and things we don't do.

Erik Ovesny 00:23:47 And I'm like, I had no idea that was out there. That's really cool. If I was a law firm, I'd be using that. So there's there's some really cool tools too. And I know I've promoted these on the podcast. I can't remember the name of it off the top of my head, but there's there's sites out there that actually list, like it's particularly in AI, the latest in AI based on like what your need is. So if it's like presentation building, it'll list ones by being free or paid. And I think those two just can help spark some ideas and innovation in ways you can innovate for your firm.

Erik Ovesny 00:24:14 Yeah, I've had to force myself to to not try it as many tools anymore, because every week I was doing and we have a live show that we do in the, in the guild that that we then turn into a Saturday podcast after a couple of weeks and I so I it that kind of forces me to test some more things or at least at least look into them.

Erik Ovesny 00:24:35 But I've, I've kind of forced myself to not test as much. And because it is one of those things where it is a it is that shiny object syndrome that can be really it's not a part of some integrated well thought out plan whenever you do that. Like when you started to implement something new, it just it's just something new. You know, it doesn't mean it's part of some some integrated plan which can be can be difficult. You mentioned storytelling a couple of times, and I'm curious where that comes from because you've you mentioned it whenever you were talking about arrow and how you you really like the storytelling. You mentioned the storytelling just not too long ago too. So I wonder, where does the storytelling part come from?

Erik Ovesny 00:25:15 Oh, yeah. Well, very specifically, I mean, I and I, I studied film in college for a while. I'm a huge film buff. I actually before I started doing all this, I was convinced when I graduated high school, going to college, I was going to be the next Steven Spielberg.

Erik Ovesny 00:25:28 I wanted to get into film. I actually did a lot of documentaries. That is what got me started in arrow, because I was doing doing videos, and then at one point I got poached to do commercials, and I loved that portion of it, because being forced to tell a story within 30 to 45 to, you know, 60s, it was a challenge, but it was one that I, I really loved. I'm like, this is this is great. So I basically found a love for that storytelling through video. And just that means of of being able to, you know, connect with audiences and pull out the emotional cords. So for me, I kind of translated that over to, you know, when the advertising side, when we were doing creatives or doing different types of, you know, just campaigns for them. I knew that storytelling was going to be the biggest piece. That's how you were going to stand out from the competition, because this is especially in the legal industry, you might see one person's ad of the next, and you could barely tell the difference between them.

Erik Ovesny 00:26:22 And the big key thing for us that I have, I at least found success not only with clients we've worked with, but certainly with my companies, is being able to tell that story.

Erik Ovesny 00:26:30 I'm trying to find the name of this, this movie producer. I actually did a podcast episode about the structure of a good movie, and I'm drawing a blank on it. Gruber I can't think of his name, first name, but last names? Gruber. Gosh, I'm drawing a blank. But he talked about I saw him speak, and then he he's got a couple books and stuff. And so I it's really interesting because he said, I'm going to ruin. Whenever I saw him speak. He said, I'm going to ruin movies forever for you or something like that, because he talks about how at the beginning of a movie, it's going to tell you how the end, what the end is going to be. And if you look at all blockbuster movies, they say they follow the same formula. So it's really funny because it's, he said.

Erik Ovesny 00:27:10 It's always the opposite of how the movie starts. So and it the beginning of the movie can be a little bit relative, but you go, so if the person is down on their luck at the beginning, has no money, everything's terrible at the end of the movie, it's going to be the complete opposite. And I will say it is. That's a pretty damn accurate description of how movies go. So I do wonder if you when you design things, do you, do you use any sort of formula that that is based on some of the things that you learned?

Erik Ovesny 00:27:42 Yeah, I think I you know, it's funny because as I design things, you know, again, as a, as I used to do this for clients or even as I'm doing them for promotional stuff for the companies, it's the cinematic approach that I always try to take, you know, how can you know? We tell that story in just a short period of time. You know, it is harder when you only have, especially on social media.

Erik Ovesny 00:28:02 I mean, it's it's a different form of storytelling because you only have to stop the scroll, you know, five seconds. So you got to be like, right out of the gate, right? So the formula is really that's pretty much like how can we within the first five seconds, be clear with what we do or why they should stop and listen, you know, to to something like that with us. But it is it's funny because as I'm telling you, I'm thinking in the back of my head, just some recent movies I saw. And it's absolutely true. You know, you obviously have outliers. Some of Tarantino's films are a little, you know, wild the way they the way they start and finish. But it's funny to just on a creative and just as we're talking about cinema and the creativity, you know, and as it relates to AI. So I know I shared this on a few other podcasts I've done, but one cool thing that I did, which was just out there when I used to have some more spare time, me and my son were all into like the superhero stuff.

Erik Ovesny 00:28:50 We both love movies, so we started to utilize and play around with some of the latest video, AI generated video things where you can go on and is someone that used to do so. I used to be on film sets. I used to direct short films. I can tell you the the idea that I could go in there and prompt a scene, and it generates in five minutes versus it would take me two days to shoot a scene that would look just like, that is insane. So I found my obsession with with that piece that that technology. And so we started doing like cinematic trailers. Next thing I know, I had like a small cult following, you know, on YouTube from some of the cinematic trailers, like we did one and it had I think, I don't, you know, he's like a big YouTube guru, but we had like over 50 K, like organic views on, like on one of our channels and it's growing. I haven't even looked at it, but we started getting like, like followers and all this stuff.

Erik Ovesny 00:29:39 And my son tells me that I'm now monetized on YouTube because of the following. So but my point is, is that, yeah, it's that the ability I think, you know, the fact that we have all these the way to answer your question, you asked earlier how I approach it. I do think a lot about the tools I have in my resource, too. That does make a big difference with what I'm doing. You know, the world of just going to these stock photos or video sites where anyone can grab a photo of this. I'm thinking, how can I tell that story in this scene? You know, how can I do that? And you also have to know, like the medium is a still visual going to be your better, you know, performer on this or that, or is it going to be video? We all know video is the best format for storytelling. And it's funny because arrow, one of the new offerings like as I mentioned earlier, I found the company at one point I was like, you know, the thing that drove me crazy? What's unique about us? Like, what makes us different besides me? It can't just be about me.

Erik Ovesny 00:30:30 It's got to be, you know, the product, the brand. And, you know, again, we found that kind of temporarily with with McAtee. That became its own thing. And so we spent a lot of time figuring out how we can make, you know, arrow innovative, too. And one of the things that we recently launched was the ability for law firms to go in and generate commercials. You know, we basically kind of utilize some of that technology. We tried to build our own, but to help them build storytelling components. So you can go on there and drop a photo of you and put yourself in a scene and generate that commercial. So that's something that's pretty cool that we're continuing to innovate and launch. But that's these are the things that I enjoy doing. I want to spend my time. And that's what I realized over, you know, certainly the last year is I think that's where my time's best spent. How can we continue to be innovative and in, you know, solve these issues through things that that do storytelling and, you know, solve real, real world problems that law firms are facing?

Erik Ovesny 00:31:24 That's really cool.

Erik Ovesny 00:31:25 I've got a couple more questions, but will you tell people if they want to get in touch with you, how do they get in touch with you? If they're interested in an arrow marketing or in yabby, give the give the URL URL to that as well.

Erik Ovesny 00:31:36 Yeah. So for arrow fact just it's arrow f. Com arrow. Com. Got our site there. And again Hope Wagner who's the CEO CEO and running that show. She's fantastic and is ready to you know connect with anyone that's interested in anything or just to have a chat about the latest and greatest and you know, that world. Then for me, Gabby, we've got a site, actually a pretty new one that we just launched, Launch, which you could actually go and test out some of the new features, which is demo. Meet Gabby and Gabby's. Is Gabby, so be a great resource if you just want to play around with some pretty cool stuff and anyone could reach out to me directly. Eric at me Gabby. Com and I'm happy to connect and just chat.

Erik Ovesny 00:32:19 I'll tell you that I love. I love just doing things like this and just chatting about these, both these worlds. It's it's weird because I was just telling someone the other day, they're like, you know, take some time off, you're burning the midnight oil, you're doing this. But I actually I enjoy it like, I, I genuinely and I feel really lucky because I enjoy what I'm doing. I enjoy the creative, the creativity, the innovation that comes with both of these products and brands. And, yeah, it's it's doesn't mean I can't keep it the pace I'm going, but certainly, I'm fortunate that I'm enjoying the time I'm spending in.

Erik Ovesny 00:32:48 It, and you'll have plenty of opportunities to do that out in Nashville at Maxwell, because, yeah, both Meet Gabby and Arrow are going to be out there as sponsors. So definitely appreciate you all. You all doing that. I've got a couple more questions. And the first one is I wonder if you have any bold predictions for either the legal space or AI in general.

Erik Ovesny 00:33:08 Yeah. Well, I as I mentioned, I think I think I'll just say this, I think glasses are going to be a big part of what we're going to see. And, you know, we're already starting to do some R&D with some of the technology. I think there's a reason Mark Zuckerberg is shifting all his focus. And you always see him with those Ray-Ban glasses on anymore. I don't think it's going to adopt, right. You know, people are going to think, but it's going to give us the ability to have more interactions, different types of interactions that aren't just audible, but they're more visual. I think we're going to see a lot more of the agents of AI start to be able to actually take more actions, you know, than what we're seeing right now. But, you know, again, it's it's it's what's crazy about the space is I call them like the AI wars. I mean, they're all trying to compete. And we saw that big blitz where, you know, OpenAI was launching something.

Erik Ovesny 00:33:56 The next thing you know, grok was then you had anthropic, you know, coming out doing this same thing with Facebook. And what's great for, you know, folks like me and companies like mine is it's helping to give us some of the best resources we could ever ask for. And so I think this rapid innovation that's happening with some of the big players in the space are going to create just more products and possibilities for law firms, whether it be a genetic AI or just, you know, tools and resources that will make their lives easier.

Erik Ovesny 00:34:23 Love it. The I have the I have the meta glasses now. The new ones seem pretty awesome. What's really cool because I have the ones that are just the sunglasses and I bought some some transition lenses to. But they didn't. They weren't. They weren't very good. You can't buy any straight from a Ray-Ban, so you can't they don't sell just those lenses by themselves. You have to get them on Amazon. And they weren't very good. So I switched them back to the to the regular sunglasses.

Erik Ovesny 00:34:50 Yeah, the AI is not super great, but I've watched some reviews of the new ones. It's really cool just the amount that they can fit into it without. They didn't increase the size much at all. They increase it slightly, but the camera is fantastic. On the one I have. It's the video, the audio, everything, the picture on. If you just take a picture, really great when I'm listening to them, when I'm listening to music or something or podcasts, it is. It's really good. The battery life is not great, I would say that, but on the new ones it's cool because you can see like whenever, if you're looking at something in the lens, the and even if it's if, let's say you're inside. So it's a, it's a clear lens. It's not the dark lens. You can't see the on the other side, you can't see what the person's looking at. It is still, you have zero idea that they're looking at something inside the lens.

Erik Ovesny 00:35:36 That part is really, really cool. So I think you're right. I'm hoping that the AI is a little better than what it is now. I'm guessing it probably is, but unless it's using the same AI, then it's not, because I do think that it's got it is not nearly as good as some of the other ones for sure.

Erik Ovesny 00:35:49 He just had a demo fail. Mark Zuckerberg, They just did one with the glasses and it failed, which it happened. So they didn't have. Yeah, I just saw it. Yeah. He had one that they were trying to promote something and yeah, the demo completely crashed. So I think they still have some work to do, but they'll figure it out. But the biggest thing is, I think augmented reality with virtual reality, with artificial intelligence. I think those are the three, like, things that are going to emerge to give us more of that immersive and interactive experience with AI that we're already seeing.

Erik Ovesny 00:36:18 I was watching some of the the top ten tech sales of all time, and one of them was Microsoft's.

Erik Ovesny 00:36:22 Whenever they they revealed the surface and the surface wasn't working, so he was pretending like it was working, but it really wasn't working. And you could tell he was he because he was showing the screen to the audience. And then when it stopped, like it wasn't reading his finger when he was touching it. So he he turned it away from the audience. It was pretending like it was working. It was like it was cringeworthy. It was awful.

Erik Ovesny 00:36:44 Fake. Fake it til you make it. You know.

Erik Ovesny 00:36:45 It's one of those things I have respect for those people. Like, like, for example, whenever Musk went and he, you know, they took that that that metal ball and they, they broke the wind. I don't know. I you've got to give them some credit for taking that risk. You know, that's a it's a really risky thing to do. And hey let's you win some you lose some not. And Steve Jobs even had he was he's he was legendary for having amazing reveals.

Erik Ovesny 00:37:07 But also he had some really big flops too. And that just that's just how it goes sometimes it's just that's that's the life we live in.

Erik Ovesny 00:37:13 Hey, we've had we've had plenty of hours early on too. So when you're doing live demos, you know, fortunately we've, you know, remedied a lot of things since then. But it happens in the innovative space when you're revealing new stuff, things, you know, there's things that happen that you don't account for and do what you do, what you have to do, but you know it's fake it til you make it right with you.

Erik Ovesny 00:37:32 Get a fail fast and keep moving. Fail fast, keep moving. The last thing I want to ask you about is I wonder. And you can't say meet Gabby. You can't say arrow marketing, right? What's one tool or strategy that you think every law firm owner should or should be using by the end of this year.

Erik Ovesny 00:37:50 Well, here's. This is probably pretty specific, but it's a tool that I don't think many people utilize.

Erik Ovesny 00:37:55 And it's going to be specific, more like social because obviously the word illegal. I've yet to meet a firm that's not doing some type of social presence or advertising. But I think one tool that's readily available is Facebook's ad library, where you could actually go on there and search for law firm ads or your competitor ads just to see what else is out there and what. I like to look at that too, because when you go down on that page, you can actually see if someone's been running, you know, a certain ad for, let's say, six months. It's working for them and it's working for reasons. So it helps you, you know, decide. Because sometimes, too, I found this. Not only the most creative ad doesn't always win. Right. And I share this too, for many experiences, not only doing it for clients in the past, but certainly doing any ads for me, Gabby or promoting arrow. But I think tools like that, that I don't think, well, from my conversations, a lot of people are always utilizing and they're free and they're just there, and it's not always heavily promoted.

Erik Ovesny 00:38:50 But again, it's Facebook ads library. You can go on there and see what's going on. And, you know, I think it gives you a good idea of what others are running, what's working and what types of creatives are out there. And it does spark ideas too. And I just share that with, because that's one that I just recently had a conversation with someone on. But as far as you know, AI tools are, you know, I think I use I'm the same way. I think you said it perfectly earlier. I tend to jump from like different softwares sometimes because I'll see a new feature and I'm like, oh, let me try that. But there's some really cool AI presentation tools out there anymore that are just fantastic, that can help put together things. And I think, you know, again, we use other tools to like runway, which is one of the tools that that we're working with as far as generating video content and even visuals. That's one of the creme de la crimes of of kind of that storytelling component.

Erik Ovesny 00:39:40 And that's another one that I've, I've really have enjoyed using. And I would highly recommend checking it out if you're, you know, lacking it, you know, finding good creative where you can just prompt something and boom, it comes up.

Erik Ovesny 00:39:49 When it comes to presentation software. Gamma app is really great. If you're going to do like slides. That's pretty nice but apparently descript. So I pulled up runway on my browser and they're running an ad saying better than runway. So descript is saying that they're better than runway. I doubt that, but we we shall see. But but Eric, thank you so much. Really appreciate it. Can't wait to to talk to you in Nashville. Thank you for being a sponsor for anyone that wants to check you out. Meet Gabby and then also Arrow Marketing. Check them out. Hopefully you all will visit their sites and check them out. They're doing great things, so guild members are using them. Guild members are investors in the company. So hopefully we'll you will check it out.

Erik Ovesny 00:40:28 But thanks Eric. Appreciate it.

Erik Ovesny 00:40:29 Austin Tyson I appreciate.